[Signing] Flames sign Deryk Engelland (3yrs, $2.9M AAV)

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Weitz

"Not ranked this week: The Deryk Engelland contract.

All that talk about the worst contract of the day? Don't worry about it. Calgary, predictably, has it sewn up.

A team that was already slated to pay Brian McGrattan and Brandon Bollig a combined $2 million next season is now also going to pay Deryk Engelland $2.9 million — a raise of about 500 percent — on top of that. Right after they bought out Shane O'Brien, who in all honesty isn't much worse than Engelland, and would have been $900,000 cheaper against the cap, and would have been gone next summer.

This is very clearly a sign that Brian Burke's influence on the team's decision-making has not changed despite the fact that he is no longer GM.

Either that, or Brad Treliving has no idea at all what he's doing, and in either case, that's bad news for the Flames' chances going forward. On a day in which Brooks Orpik got five years and $5.25 million per, the fact that there was even a close second here — for a team still in search of “toughness” despite having too much of it already — tells you everything about what a disaster this franchise is. Good lord.

Treliving said in the wake of the signing that Engelland has been “undervalued” for a while, so one assumes he thought he'd make up for that by overvaluing him to a ludicrous extent.

Poor Sam Bennett. Poor Sean Monahan. Poor Johnny Gaudreau. Poor Flames fans."

Some may not like the source, from my scouring of the internet this seems to be the general consensus around the league.

Very bottom of this article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...154852827.html

Given that we are a rebuilding team whose only cap issue is that we need to reach the floor, the most important part of any contract is term at this point (not dollars). In fact, term is more important to most teams these days. Any writer that doesn't see that isn't worth the paper they are writing on.

The fact of the matter is, by the time this team is going to be needing to re-sign important players, Engelland will be off the books. His presence here is to help create an environment for our prospects to play without being pushed around too much. I also think that Engelland could have gotten a longer deal for less money yearly, but more in the long run on a lot of teams and in 3 years, he won't have a lot of negotiating power like does now. Taking a short deal demands extra financial compensation. It's a big risk for him.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

So you're saying
It's the worst value contract in the league, but we can afford it easily, so who cares how bad our GM is at signing contracts?


I'm not going to say this tarnishes everything else he's done, nor does it alone make him a terrible GM. It is worrisome that he felt this was worth the signing

Treliving has signed 3 contracts as Flames GM. Two of them have decent dollar value plus very reasonable term. One of them has high dollar value/ability with decent term. When I look around at what people have written about free agency, most people seem to think the Flames did a good job at not committing to bad contracts that will cripple them down the road and addressed needs of the club. Clearly term was the big thing that the Flames didn't want to commit to, and they accomplished that.

Furthermore, Treliving has very clearly stated why he paid what he did. He knows that he overpaid and he has stated his reasons for doing so. You can disagree, but it is hardly as worrisome as you make it out to be or indicative of a trend. Really, for a team that will be hard pressed to win and that is not a destination for free agents, I am very impressed with Treliving. A lot of the GMs in similar situations either paid way too much (Edmonton) or were left without anything (Arizona, Detroit, Winnipeg, etc)

[Aarongavey]

Questions and thoughts on your post.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Flames were 27th in the league last year and lacked some physicality. Ok, I get this point the Flames were bad last year and according to some subjective observations lacked some physicality. I can agree with this.

They will probably be about 27th or 28th in the league this year as well. I agree with this as well, the flames will probably be at least that bad this year.

They will barely make the cap floor. This is where I get confused. Unless Burke and company are trying to lose could they not address your second point by signing some free agents and vastly exceeding the cap floor and maybe become a 23rd or 24th overall team. Are there not better options to address your second point than Engelland

And people are up in arms about how much the #6 defenseman is going to get paid and/or how good he is. I do not understand how this is at all relevant to your first 3 points. Should fans not care that Treliving and company signed this guy to a big ticket relative to his standing as a #6 dman because the Flames suck and will suck and are refusing to spend money to prevent said suckage? Why in your opinion is the fact that we will suck at all relevant to whether or not fans should be upset about said contract?

lol lol indeed at this contract and the teams unwillingness to address the fact that they are icing a bottom feeding roster (unless the Flames are trying to lose in which case I personally support that and say that this signing goes above and beyond the call of duty to demonstrate dedication to losing.)

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But nice attempt at twisting someone's words.

Sorry (although if I twisted them it was just barely)... it's just becoming annoying how much virtual fapping over "physicality" is taking place. Not by you specifically, but in general and the amount of boner popping over something that's basically a 2nd tier attribute is maddening.

This is a terrible contract, the decision to sign it was a terrible decision and no one should ever be ok with the team making terrible decisions regardless of how meaningless it is at present.

[neo45]

I hate the attitude that since there is a cap floor, recklessly spending to reach it is completely acceptable and fans have no right to complain about how management spends 10 million dollars.

Where do people think that 10 million comes from? The salary floor was practically already reached when Raymond and Hiller were signed btw, giving Bouma and Colborne 800k and filling the roster with people making league minimum would have put us within 400k of the floor, so signing a guy to a 1 year 1 mil contract would make us floor compliant

People also neglect how this could affect ALL of our future contract negotiations down the road. When the worst player on the team makes 2.92 million...

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Sorry (although if I twisted them it was just barely)... it's just becoming annoying how much virtual fapping over "physicality" is taking place. Not by you specifically, but in general and the amount of boner popping over something that's basically a 2nd tier attribute is maddening.

This is a terrible contract, the decision to sign it was a terrible decision and no one should ever be ok with the team making terrible decisions regardless of how meaningless it is at present.

Is it terrible or meaningless?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Parallex

So having added "physicality" along with the estimation that the Flames will be the same or worse... would you not then come to the conclusion that "physicality" is way way way overrated.

Don't really understand your logic. If Engelland provides a good example, is good in the room, helps protect our goalies and young players, and logs some decent minutes then the signing is a positive one. A bottom pairing guy will never singlehandedly drag us up the standings. Why would you think that should be the case or that should be how the deal should be judged?

Some of the stuff in this thread is just bizarre. Talk about over reactions.

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by neo45

I hate the attitude that since there is a cap floor, recklessly spending to reach it is completely acceptable and fans have no right to complain about how management spends 10 million dollars.

Where do people think that 10 million comes from? The salary floor was practically already reached when Raymond and Hiller were signed btw, giving Bouma and Colborne 800k and filling the roster with people making league minimum would have put us within 400k of the floor, so signing a guy to a 1 year 1 mil contract would make us floor compliant

People also neglect how this could affect ALL of our future contract negotiations down the road. When the worst player on the team makes 2.92 million...

If this affects a single contract on this team going forward then the management are terrible at their jobs.

This isn't reckless spending at all because the guy fits a specific role the team was looking to fill, doesn't handcuff the team going forward, doesn't impact the teams ability to add players they want going forward and doesn't affect future deals.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by neo45

I hate the attitude that since there is a cap floor, recklessly spending to reach it is completely acceptable and fans have no right to complain about how management spends 10 million dollars.

Where do people think that 10 million comes from? The salary floor was practically already reached when Raymond and Hiller were signed btw, giving Bouma and Colborne 800k and filling the roster with people making league minimum would have put us within 400k of the floor, so signing a guy to a 1 year 1 mil contract would make us floor compliant

People also neglect how this could affect ALL of our future contract negotiations down the road. When the worst player on the team makes 2.92 million...

Has Cory Sarich's contract hurt our negotiating this whole time? He was a 6/7 dman for us making 3.6 million and the 3 million when the cap was even lower!

UFA contracts aren't compared to RFA contracts. Don't see how this signing affects much of anything in terms of future contracts. Pretty much all UFA's are overpaid. Quincey making 4.5 per is as much of an overpay as Engelland and so were half the contracts defencemen signed on July 1st.

You're being overdramatic about this. The contract isn't that outrageous and really doesn't negatively affect the flames in any way I can see.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by neo45

People also neglect how this could affect ALL of our future contract negotiations down the road. When the worst player on the team makes 2.92 million...

This is just fear mongering. The Flames roster is littered with cap friendly contracts...Glencross, Giordano, Hudler, Russel, etc. A signing for a depth defenseman with a 2.9 av does not throw everything else out the window. Furthermore, if an rfa wanted to find a comparible to justify a big raise, they are better off using examples of overpayments around the league for players that more directly compare to them.

[ricardodw]

The only reason that i would not like these contracts is that I think there is very little chance that the flames will want Engelland or Raymond beyond their current term.

Brian Boyle (signed with TB for 3 yrs/6 M) could become a 3rd/4th line fixture and would be 32 at the end of the contract.

Seems like the Flames overpaid and would I would rather have Boyle @3M than either of these 2.

Raymond just seems to me to be a top 6 filler.... like Stempniak, and Dawes. No team can be successful with a ho-hum top 6 filler..

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The only reason that i would not like these contracts is that I think there is very little chance that the flames will want Engelland or Raymond beyond their current term.

Brian Boyle (signed with TB for 3 yrs/6 M) could become a 3rd/4th line fixture and would be 32 at the end of the contract.

Seems like the Flames overpaid and would I would rather have Boyle @3M than either of these 2.

Raymond just seems to me to be a top 6 filler.... like Stempniak, and Dawes. No team can be successful with a ho-hum top 6 filler..

Dawes? Come on, man. That is a ridiculous comparison for Stempniak or Raymond. Also, Stempniak was a usefull player for the Flames and garnered a 3rd round draft pick at the deadline. How is that a bad move on a rebuilding team?

[neo45]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

This is just fear mongering. The Flames roster is littered with cap friendly contracts...Glencross, Giordano, Hudler, Russel, etc. A signing for a depth defenseman with a 2.9 av does not throw everything else out the window. Furthermore, if an rfa wanted to find a comparible to justify a big raise, they are better off using examples of overpayments around the league for players that more directly compare to them.

That kind of proves my point. All of those guys are UFAs and will need to be negotiated with by the time Engellands contract is off the books. And if you don't think agents use other guys contracts in negotiations you are kidding yourself...

[sun]

I keep laughing at this contract, but I don't find myself mad at all since it's unlikely to bite us in the ass either way (except on the ice, of course).

He is just hilariously overpaid. Reminds me of when Pardy got $2 mill in Dallas. Just worse. Too funny. I chuckle every time I see the thread title.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Questions and thoughts on your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root
The Flames were 27th in the league last year and lacked some physicality. Ok, I get this point the Flames were bad last year and according to some subjective observations lacked some physicality. I can agree with this.

They will probably be about 27th or 28th in the league this year as well. I agree with this as well, the flames will probably be at least that bad this year.

They will barely make the cap floor. This is where I get confused. Unless Burke and company are trying to lose could they not address your second point by signing some free agents and vastly exceeding the cap floor and maybe become a 23rd or 24th overall team. Are there not better options to address your second point than Engelland

And people are up in arms about how much the #6 defenseman is going to get paid and/or how good he is. I do not understand how this is at all relevant to your first 3 points. Should fans not care that Treliving and company signed this guy to a big ticket relative to his standing as a #6 dman because the Flames suck and will suck and are refusing to spend money to prevent said suckage? Why in your opinion is the fact that we will suck at all relevant to whether or not fans should be upset about said contract?

lol lol indeed at this contract and the teams unwillingness to address the fact that they are icing a bottom feeding roster (unless the Flames are trying to lose in which case I personally support that and say that this signing goes above and beyond the call of duty to demonstrate dedication to losing.)

Are you are suggesting that the Flames should have spent more in free agency in an attempt to get better (i.e. 23rd or 24th overall)? I doubt many people would agree with you, however:

1) I would love to hear how you think they could have done that - personally, I believe that attempting to build a team through free agency is a fool's game that is destined to fail, but nonetheless, please tell us how (and why) the Flames could get to 23rd or 24th overall...

2) signing Engelland does not preclude them from doing what you suggested

With respect to your point that fans should be mad that the Flames aren't doing anything about 'said suckage'... again how does signing a player make them suck more? It isn't a logical argument. You may not like him as a player, but adding him to the team does not make them worse.

And how much he gets paid (since the Flames have zero chance of approaching cap jail) has absolutely no effect whatsoever on said suckage.

Your argument doesn't support your anger.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Has Cory Sarich's contract hurt our negotiating this whole time? He was a 6/7 dman for us making 3.6 million and the 3 million when the cap was even lower!

UFA contracts aren't compared to RFA contracts. Don't see how this signing affects much of anything in terms of future contracts. Pretty much all UFA's are overpaid. Quincey making 4.5 per is as much of an overpay as Engelland and so were half the contracts defencemen signed on July 1st.

You're being overdramatic about this. The contract isn't that outrageous and really doesn't negatively affect the flames in any way I can see.

Well, the fact that you think Sarich was a 7th defenseman when the Flames signed him, and is comparable to Engelland tells me all I need to know. Sarich played in our top 4 for the MAJORITY of his contract and that was when our defense was among the top of the league

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Dawes? Come on, man. That is a ridiculous comparison for Stempniak or Raymond. Also, Stempniak was a usefull player for the Flames and garnered a 3rd round draft pick at the deadline. How is that a bad move on a rebuilding team?

Didn't compare them...other than the spot they filled on the roster and were not good enough to make the team a winner (playoffs).

Is Raymond going to bring in a 3rd round pick next trade deadline? The Leafs couldn't move him last deadline. I would be okay with that but don't see anyone picking up his contract.

Right now Stempniak is available for no assets... other teams don't see him as their #6 forward.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by neo45

That kind of proves my point. All of those guys are UFAs and will need to be negotiated with by the time Engellands contract is off the books. And if you don't think agents use other guys contracts in negotiations you are kidding yourself...

Of course they do.

But if you think Engelland's contract will affect Giordano's you are the one kidding yourself

[Enoch Root]

When Engelland's contract comes off the books, Bennett, Poirier, Klimchuk and Kanzig will still all be on their ELCs

(assuming none of them play 10 games with the Flames this year)

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Of course they do.

But if you think Engelland's contract will affect Giordano's you are the one kidding yourself

Or Brodie's or Gaudreau's or Monahan's. I mean common. If Monahan is using Engelland as a comparable contract to base a raise on, than he will have been a complete bust.