2013/14 General Heat Discussion Thread

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Kanzig's stats aren't that much different from Sieloff's at the same age.

Sieloff (OHL)---GP 45 Goals 3 Assists 8
Kanzig (WHL)--GP 63 Goals 3 Assists 5

Which I why I don't understand everyone's enthusiasm for Sieloff.

If Kanzig or Sieloff make it as NHLers, they will be two of the biggest outliers in NHL draft history.

Not out of the realm of possibility, just not likely.

[greentree]

Kanzig will benefit tremendously skating with the Heat. The kid has another key attribute that is often overlooked: Brains.
Floor = AHL all-star imho

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

RE: Kanzig's skating.

His acceleration isn't very good, but his long strides get him up to top speed quickly and he is quite fast.

The other day they were doing a drill where the player starts on a faceoff dot. Two pucks are placed at each of the four sides of the circles. They had to skate to each puck and touch it with their stick, returning to the faceoff dot before they went to the next one. With Kanzig's stride he blew every forward out of the water and he wasn't hunched over gasping for breath afterwards like everyone else.

The guy really is a freak physically. If he takes a similar path as Wotherspoon, it'll be ideal - where he starts out slow, makes several mistakes throughout the first couple of months, then really hits his stride and becomes one of the team's best shutdown guys. That'd be ideal.

Then that means his skating has improved because in July he wasn't beating anyone.

Gooood. Good.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Which I why I don't understand everyone's enthusiasm for Sieloff.

If Kanzig or Sieloff make it as NHLers, they will be two of the biggest outliers in NHL draft history.

Not out of the realm of possibility, just not likely.

Sieloff is basically Cory Sarich. He might not have any upside beyond being a #4/5 guy, but having a physical defender that's competent defensively will always be useful.

If it wasn't for the infection, in my opinion, he would've got the call instead of Wotherspoon. In July, he looked the most NHL ready and the best of the defense prospects.

Stats, especially for players that don't play offensive style games, do not always reflect on the player's ability. Neither one will generate a ton of offense, but both can at least make an outlet pass. It's not much, but it's not like they are completely useless and are only there to hit the other team.

Sieloff is our best prospect on the defense, even ahead of Wotherspoon (Lower ceiling/Higher floor)

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Sieloff is basically Cory Sarich. He might not have any upside beyond being a #4/5 guy, but having a physical defender that's competent defensively will always be useful.

If it wasn't for the infection, in my opinion, he would've got the call instead of Wotherspoon. In July, he looked the most NHL ready and the best of the defense prospects.

Stats, especially for players that don't play offensive style games, do not always reflect on the player's ability. Neither one will generate a ton of offense, but both can at least make an outlet pass. It's not much, but it's not like they are completely useless and are only there to hit the other team.

Sieloff is our best prospect on the defense, even ahead of Wotherspoon (Lower ceiling/Higher floor)

Really? It seems impossible to me that Sieloff could be ahead of Wotherspoon. Sieloff lost two of the most formidable seasons of his development to injury. If he becomes anything after all those setbacks, I'd be shocked. Wotherspoon has all the in-game experience that is crucial to young development.

Kanzig is at least playing games all the time. He may not be putting up points (doesn't concern me for a d-man, eg: Ramage, I thought was great this season, put up 1 point in 50 games for the Heat)

What I see with Kanzig is that he'll likely take the slow route like Breen. It took Breen until he reached UFA status to show signs that he could make his size work at the professional level. Breen doesn't put up points but he's slowly become a reliable defender in his own zone and a leader in the locker room.

I have a really hard time putting Wotherspoon anywhere but at the top of the D prospect list. He made everyone he played with better this season IMO.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by fotze

Big guys and in particular, freakishly big guys are slow developers especially with skating. I think with Kanzig all you do is show patience and see what happens. He is a lottery pick. If he develops and keeps developing for 4 years you can have a ridiculous player. It will just be a very long road. I give him a 40% chance of playing 25 games in the NHL and like a 10% chance of playing 150, 3% chance of being special.

This. I can't believe people are talking like 'if his skating doesn't improve by July, he's probably an AHLer'. Let's show some patience - with a guy that size, he'll need it.

With respect to his points in junior - yes, it is extremely rare for someone with his kind of numbers to make the NHL. However, it is also extremely rare to be 6'6" 245 and no body fat at 18 too.

Let's let it unfold - crazier things have happened

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

RE: Kanzig's skating.

His acceleration isn't very good, but his long strides get him up to top speed quickly and he is quite fast.

The other day they were doing a drill where the player starts on a faceoff dot. Two pucks are placed at each of the four sides of the circles. They had to skate to each puck and touch it with their stick, returning to the faceoff dot before they went to the next one. With Kanzig's stride he blew every forward out of the water and he wasn't hunched over gasping for breath afterwards like everyone else.

The guy really is a freak physically. If he takes a similar path as Wotherspoon, it'll be ideal - where he starts out slow, makes several mistakes throughout the first couple of months, then really hits his stride and becomes one of the team's best shutdown guys. That'd be ideal.

I like that you said long strides, because that was what was missing in his skating last summer. Felt like he skated way to upright, was only using about 60% of his stride, wasting a lot of energy. If he's adjusted to more fluid longer strides, getting lower to the ice that'll go far in him improving his overall mobility.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Really? It seems impossible to me that Sieloff could be ahead of Wotherspoon. Sieloff lost two of the most formidable seasons of his development to injury. If he becomes anything after all those setbacks, I'd be shocked. Wotherspoon has all the in-game experience that is crucial to young development.

Kanzig is at least playing games all the time. He may not be putting up points (doesn't concern me for a d-man, eg: Ramage, I thought was great this season, put up 1 point in 50 games for the Heat)

What I see with Kanzig is that he'll likely take the slow route like Breen. It took Breen until he reached UFA status to show signs that he could make his size work at the professional level. Breen doesn't put up points but he's slowly become a reliable defender in his own zone and a leader in the locker room.

I have a really hard time putting Wotherspoon anywhere but at the top of the D prospect list. He made everyone he played with better this season IMO.

Agreed.

Wotherspoon has proven that he can play in the NHL.

Sieloff has not yet proven that he can play in the AHL.

I am sure he will, and I really like him as a prospect, but to suggest he is ahead of Wotherspoon as a prospect at this point is ludicrous IMO.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Which I why I don't understand everyone's enthusiasm for Sieloff.

If Kanzig or Sieloff make it as NHLers, they will be two of the biggest outliers in NHL draft history.

Not out of the realm of possibility, just not likely.

For me, I'd probably put Kanzig as the better prospect as he has the size to make his game work. Sieloff is a 6' defenceman which is small for a defenceman, yet his game is based on his hitting. I don't know if it will transfer to the NHL. So far he couldn't play a full season in junior which makes me more dubious of his upside. He's young yet so I hope he proves me wrong. Maybe he can become another Scott Hannan but even he had 43 points one year in Kelowna.

[sureLoss]

Ryan Pinder @Fan960Pinder
Troy Ward this AM: Sieloff is skating again, Poirier will get significant playoff action, great skater.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Agreed.

Wotherspoon has proven that he can play in the NHL.

Sieloff has not yet proven that he can play in the AHL.

I am sure he will, and I really like him as a prospect, but to suggest he is ahead of Wotherspoon as a prospect at this point is ludicrous IMO.

I have Sieloff ahead still, because I don't knock players down my ratings because they were out with injury. Coming into next season (or July), he'll be 100%, so he can be judged then against the others. Because it's still a question mark, and there's no new information I just leave it as is.

Just have to wait and see. Would I be shocked Wotherspoon and possibly others might have passed him, definitely not.

[bubbsy]

hmm i have difficulty seeing Sarich being a comparison for Seiloff. Sarich's best asset was his size. He just seemed like such a heavy player to play against along the boards/in front of the net, like a poor man's Regehr.

Seiloff, though not afraid to hit, just doesn't seem to have that same big, heavy body type. I can't think of a good example at the NHL level, but he kind of reminds me of what Cundari's scouting stated, though not the biggest guy, willing to make the open ice hit. How well that can translate, smaller dman trying to push folks around, when playing in the big leagues has yet to be seen and will likely be his make it or break it factor.

[Caged Great]

Rhett Warrener then instead as a comparable to correct for the height. Mobile defensive defensemen that can hit and are very heavy in the way they hit. All three have that in common. There are slight differences between them on how they do it, but it's splitting hairs.

Also, it's not like Sieloff is a short player he's 6-0 210. Warrener was 1 inch taller and the same weight. Sarich actually weighs less than both and is 4 inches taller than Sieloff.

[PeteMoss]

The thing about the points is not that it projects to scoring in the NHL, it shows a semblance of having ability with the puck.

You see this with Breen when he plays with the Flames. He's big and can skate decently but he can't do anything with the puck so you can never get out of your own end.

You look at Warrener as discussed above... he was an offensive zero at the NHL level but back in his junior days he put up 26 points at age 18 and 39 at age 19. You can give a bit of a pass to Seiloff since he only played one year of junior and could have jumped up in points at 19 if he had played down there (or anywhere) this year, but it is still very concerning.

[Caged Great]

The lack of points is concerning. They along with Deblouw and Harrison are the only ones with that problem. It's just that because they are primarily defensive D-men, they can get by with not being spectacular offensive wizards. When I saw them, their passing didn't stand out as being terrible. Some of the prospects (James Martin, and a couple of the walk ons) did have noticeable problems with their passing, which wasn't present with either Sieloff or Kanzig. They weren't the second coming of TJ Brodie, but it didn't stand out as being a negative. It's one of those things where you need to see them up against pro talent in the AHL to see how they fair at getting the puck out, because it's a whole different thing from a prospect camp or a game in Juniors.

[kehatch]

Regehr and Sarich are two dedicated stay at home D men in Flames recent history. Warrener is another.

They all had MUCH better production than Kanzig and Sieloff in junior.

I think it is a mistake to say that a lack of offensive production in junior is okay for players that project to be defensive players. Players with NHL potential are generally good enough in junior, and have enough acumen, that they put up a reasonable number of points.

There are VERY few players that have the level of junior production of Sieloff and Kanzig and actually make the NHL. I am sure there are examples, but I haven't found any.

Both players are incredible long shots to make the NHL. I am cheering for them. But unfortunately history just doesn't support them making it.

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[Drury18]

Congrats to Dean Arsene. He and his wife Alex welcomed a baby boy this morning!

Congrats to #AHLHeat Captain Dean Arsene and his wife Alex on the birth of their baby boy Dominic John Arsene!

[formulate]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Regehr and Sarich are two dedicated stay at home D men in Flames recent history. Warrener is another.

They all had MUCH better production than Kanzig and Sieloff in junior.

I think it is a mistake to say that a lack of offensive production in junior is okay for players that project to be defensive players. Players with NHL potential are generally good enough in junior, and have enough acumen, that they put up a reasonable number of points.

There are VERY few players that have the level of junior production of Sieloff and Kanzig and actually make the NHL. I am sure there are examples, but I haven't found any.

Both players are incredible long shots to make the NHL. I am cheering for them. But unfortunately history just doesn't support them making it.

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Hal Gill put up 3 points in 31 games for Providence College in his draft +1 year. Followed it up with 4 in 26 before scoring at about 0.5PPG his final 2 years. Granted, he was an 8th rounder, but that's the only example I can really find. Like you said, their both longshots, but I'm cheering for both!

[Rick M.]

What can we expect from Kulak and Culkin? Are they potential Flames and, if so, how high up the defensive pecking order do you see them going.

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

What can we expect from Kulak and Culkin? Are they potential Flames and, if so, how high up the defensive pecking order do you see them going.

Both aren't big, so they might not translate to the NHL well, but both guys play good three-zone defensive games.