Attawapiskat chief wants more cash? You don't say!

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I have spent a fair bit of time is isolated First Nations communities as well and agree that many people don't understand the way things work (or don't work) in those communities. There is a huge disconnect between the average urban Canadian and people who live in these remote communities.



Again, I couldn't agree more. These reserves are very harmful and I have trouble believing that they won't do more to hurt their culture than preserve it.



That's sad, but probably true.

There are some discussions about land exchanges where First Nations can either purchase or be granted land close to urban centers so that their young people can have access to mainstream Canada, but still space and autonomy.

Do you think that could work?

Urban reserves are a concept that keep coming up a lot. I believe Saskatoon has one. 4 different aboriginal groups surrounding Winnipeg have land claims to the old army base in the city (which is in the rich area of the city) to set up urban reserves. Most experts agree that their land claim will be successful, however the city and it's residents are fighting tooth and nail against these 1st nations (surprise surprise).

The problem with urban reserves is that they only benefit the few bands near the actual city, which is a very small group of the 1st nations in this country. These reserves are usually better off in the first place (relatively speaking) because they're not so isolated as other groups.

But yes, I think more economic opportunities benefit the people and urban reserves are positive. However, it's only a very small piece of the puzzle.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

True but they did escape a near genocide from Stalin and the Soviets who starved 30 million Ukrainians to death. Crossed an ocean with literally nothing and were working virgin land that was considered to be garbage by the government and they got grain out of it.

I would actually be very interested in studying generational impacts on Ukranians who were directly involved with the policies of Stalin, either the starvation or relocation. You previously mentioned the Irish as well but either are unaware of or failed to recognize the generations of violence the Irish subjected themselves to while under British rule

You're also demonstrating a certain level of cognitive dissonance. Many Ukrainians and the Irish chose to flee their homelands instead of assimilating with the colonialists. Is that the option you're suggesting to aboriginals? What does that say about us?

eedit: This is a bit of a circular argument though, that will never really be agreed upon. I'll keep thinking that natives need to stop being so driven by events that happened to their ancestors and centuries ago, and you will say that it still has lingering effects and institutional racism still exists and they have barriers. We've tried it "your way" (figure of speech) by coddling natives and destroying their society with the reserve system. I say it's time to try the sink or swim approach. It will be best for all parties involved. Take it for what it's worth.

Except that your argument is based on a false premise that it's been tried my way. How can you say that the indigenous population has been given a chance at self-determination when accounting for issues such as residential schools and the multiple failures of the federal government to live up to their ends of various treaties?

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I would actually be very interested in studying generational impacts on Ukranians who were directly involved with the policies of Stalin, either the starvation or relocation. You previously mentioned the Irish as well but either are unaware of or failed to recognize the generations of violence the Irish subjected themselves to while under British rule

You're also demonstrating a certain level of cognitive dissonance. Many Ukrainians and the Irish chose to flee their homelands instead of assimilating with the colonialists. Is that the option you're suggesting to aboriginals? What does that say about us?

So regardless of 'dominating culture' you are suggesting that the current plight of Ukrainians and Irish who fled to Canada would be less advantageous than the current situation of Native Americans living in Canada? No one is saying that they should leave, but if they had, would they be better off? What if they just left the reserves and moved into general population as other groups had?

Except that your argument is based on a false premise that it's been tried my way. How can you say that the indigenous population has been given a chance at self-determination when accounting for issues such as residential schools and the multiple failures of the federal government to live up to their ends of various treaties?

And your premise is once again ignoring the reality that many other oppressed social groups have overcome, and the blatant failure that is current policy in Canadian reserves. Judged by their outcome, would you suggest that the Russian policy of Ukrainian Genocide is a better strategy than the Canadian Reserve system?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

So regardless of 'dominating culture' you are suggesting that the current plight of Ukrainians and Irish who fled to Canada would be less advantageous than the current situation of Native Americans living in Canada?

I don't think that's what I suggested at all. I think I suggested that the situation for the Irish and Ukrainians was more advantageous upon entry to Canada due to the fact that they weren't subject to the same systemic abuse by the Canadian government. As far as I'm aware, the government also did not attempt to shame and coerce Ukrainians and Irishmen from their beliefs and traditions.

No one is saying that they should leave, but if they had, would they be better off? What if they just left the reserves and moved into general population as other groups had?

I have no idea if they would be better off if they left. Where would they have gone? If I'm not mistaken, the Irish established a number of predominantly Irish neighbourhoods that likely eased the cultural transition, as did their common shared values and religion with other white settlers. Again, there's also the concept of choice here. Settlers chose to move to Canada, the indigenous population didn't choose to be colonized. Are you now suggesting that they should abandon their traditional beliefs because they were colonized?

And your premise is once again ignoring the reality that many other oppressed social groups have overcome,

Really? Have you actually examined the legacy of colonialism in other countries, such as India, Australia, and countless African nations.

and the blatant failure that is current policy in Canadian reserves.

How can you judge something as a failed policy when it's never been adhered to by side responsible for imposing it? If there is a failure in the reserve system of the various treaties, it's because the Canadian population, legal systems, etc. have failed to hold the government accountable for violating them.

Judged by their outcome, would you suggest that the Russian policy of Ukrainian Genocide is a better strategy than the Canadian Reserve system?

I'm not even sure what the hell this means or has to do with anything.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

According to Star Trek, the solution is about 300 years in the future!

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dorvan_V

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by AcGold

It hasn't been 20 years, '96 was the last one.

"In 1909, Dr. Peter Bryce, general medical superintendent for the DIA, reported to the department that between 1894 and 1908, mortality rates at some residential schools in Western Canada ranged from 30% to 60% over five years (that is, five years after entry, 30% to 60% of students had died, or 6–12% per annum"

Last one to close in Alberta was in 1975. 39 years ago. A good deal of them actually closed before that in the 50s and 60s.

It really isn't as recent as you want to make it seem.

[ae118]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

I'll keep thinking that natives need to stop being so driven by events that happened to their ancestors and centuries ago, and you will say that it still has lingering effects and institutional racism still exists and they have barriers.

Except it's not some faraway thing that happened to their ancestors. People who went to residential schools are still alive, telling their stories to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and being someone's parent or grandparent. How do you parent your children when you are broken inside from abuse and have nothing positive to model on? Which then affects your family, your reserve, your culture (or what was left of it), etc. And it took years and years and years and Jack Layton working across party lines for the government to even issue a verbal apology. Which is arguably meaningless without concerted effort to listen to aboriginal peoples and work with them to improve conditions.



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[AcGold]

One problem is that their society has been so badly effected on a biological and quality of life level that giving them more sovereignty over themselves or imposing it on them is giving sovereignty to a society plagued by psychological and physical problems.

Some healing has to happen for them to ever do anything good. I know it's probably the opposite of what many of you would want but I think their original culture needs to become part of Canadian society, how their culture was marginalized it now needs to be reversed. There should be more education about their history in school, some of their traditions need to be remembered and their resourcefulness should be celebrated.

I find it tough to think they'll ever turn things around when for more than 100 years the government that rules over them told them their entire culture was worthless and that it needed to be destroyed. Their spirit is destroyed and it'll take 30 million Canadians working together to ever help them heal from the atrocities they suffered for so long. They've lost their identity and the reality of the situation was hidden for so long.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by AcGold

One problem is that their society has been so badly effected on a biological and quality of life level that giving them more sovereignty over themselves or imposing it on them is giving sovereignty to a society plagued by psychological and physical problems.

Some healing has to happen for them to ever do anything good. I know it's probably the opposite of what many of you would want but I think their original culture needs to become part of Canadian society, how their culture was marginalized it now needs to be reversed. There should be more education about their history in school, some of their traditions need to be remembered and their resourcefulness should be celebrated.

I find it tough to think they'll ever turn things around when for more than 100 years the government that rules over them told them their entire culture was worthless and that it needed to be destroyed. Their spirit is destroyed and it'll take 30 million Canadians working together to ever help them heal from the atrocities they suffered for so long. They've lost their identity and the reality of the situation was hidden for so long.

My kids learn about natives and inuit at school.

[rubecube]

Do the people who propose assimilation actually think it will result in a quick fix? Do you think the cycles of violence and poverty is going to stop just because it becomes less visible? Will moving aboriginals off of reserves remove the stigmas that people have associated with them and reduce the amount of discrimination they suffer. How does eliminating their communities help with the psychological issues associated with two and a half centuries of abuse?

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

My kids learn about natives and inuit at school.

do they learn about what the government did to them?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Do the people who propose assimilation actually think it will result in a quick fix? Do you think the cycles of violence and poverty is going to stop just because it becomes less visible? Will moving aboriginals off of reserves remove the stigmas that people have associated with them and reduce the amount of discrimination they suffer. How does eliminating their communities help with the psychological issues associated with two and a half centuries of abuse?

Rubecube, as you say it is 250 yrs of abuse, it won't happen overnight, it won't happen in a generation, it might two or three generations. Hell it might not happen at all (I hope not), but I think we can both agree the current approach is not working.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by AcGold

do they learn about what the government did to them?

They are in grade 2 and 5.

I don't know the complete curriculum (I reckon you could find it on line), but at those ages/grades I am not sure.


I will ask my kids tonight it you wish.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Rubecube, as you say it is 250 yrs of abuse, it won't happen overnight, it won't happen in a generation, it might two or three generations. Hell it might not happen at all (I hope not), but I think we can both agree the current approach is not working.

Oh I agree the current approach isn't working, but I think it's less a matter of policy and more a problem of execution. To me, advocating assimilation is letting the government off the hook.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Oh I agree the current approach isn't working, but I think it's less a matter of policy and more a problem of execution. To me, advocating assimilation is letting the government off the hook.

No offence, but at what point is the pound of flesh sufficient?

If we (both natives & non-natives) Canadians want to move forward heal these wounds we need to move past your bolded statement. We have posted about this before, and I truely believe that if we are resolve these issues, then we need to look past blame and "letting the gov't off the hook".

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Last one to close in Alberta was in 1975. 39 years ago. A good deal of them actually closed before that in the 50s and 60s.

It really isn't as recent as you want to make it seem.

I was at a presentation from a student and teacher who went to the truth and reconciliation meetings in Edmonton a few weeks ago and they mentioned that the last school closed in 1996. But I guess that was in Saskatchewan.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No offence, but at what point is the pound of flesh sufficient?

If we (both natives & non-natives) Canadians want to move forward heal these wounds we need to move past your bolded statement. We have posted about this before, and I truely believe that if we are resolve these issues, then we need to look past blame and "letting the gov't off the hook".

I would agree if the government was demonstrating that they could be trusted. Again, how do you sell these people on assimilation when they've been boned so many times before and continue to be boned? What do you say "I know the other 1000 times we said we wouldn't screw you over we did, but this time we REALLY mean it?"

We have no credibility.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I would agree if the government was demonstrating that they could be trusted. Again, how do you sell these people on assimilation when they've been boned so many times before and continue to be boned? What do you say "I know the other 1000 times we said we wouldn't screw you over we did, but this time we REALLY mean it?"

We have no credibility.

That seems like a two way statement to me, given the original subject matter of this thread

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

That seems like a two way statement to me, given the original subject matter of this thread

Really? That might be one of the most ignorant statements posted in this thread. To compare the fraud committed by a small number of people to nearly three centuries of systematic genocide and abuse is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Congratulations.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I would agree if the government was demonstrating that they could be trusted. Again, how do you sell these people on assimilation when they've been boned so many times before and continue to be boned? What do you say "I know the other 1000 times we said we wouldn't screw you over we did, but this time we REALLY mean it?"

We have no credibility.

So what is/are the options then? We appear to be in a stand off.

I would hope that the leaders of both sides would realize that reconciliation requires trust/forgiveness. As it sits, your post are very pessimistic on finding a resolution.