Attawapiskat chief wants more cash? You don't say!

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

This has always bugged me when people said it because I just assumed it was a mistake - the correct term is "jerry-rigged", as far as I was concerned - and stuff like that is nails on a chalkboard (see, e.g., "for all intensive purposes").

So I just looked it up and apparently I am wrong. "Jerry-rigged" is a #######ization of "jerry-built" which has similar application by analogy but a different origin, whereas "jury-rigged" is a nautical term.

However, in this context, "jerry-built" (or its successor jerry-rigged, adopted in common parlance through use) is more appropriate in the instant circumstances as it denotes shoddy construction, whereas "jury rigged" actually refers to having to quickly construct something in an emergency that consequently isn't as well done as you'd ideally like it to be. In other words, if I'm in a bind and I "jury-rig" a rough and haphazard solution that nonetheless works, that's actually a positive thing. "Jerry-built" never means anything good.

That's just one etymological explanation. Jerry-rig is also postulated to come from German jerry cans when allied forces came across makeshift German equipment, they applied that term. Given Crunch's penchant for everything military, I would have thought he would make that association.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by puckedoff

I of learned something today. For all intensive purposes I may be a little smarter now then before.

This is all very mind-bottling.

[CaptainCrunch]

Yes I used the wrong terminology.

Neither term is actually applicable in this case.

I was trying to make the point that the election was basically rigged when Spence changed the voting rules to dis-allow anyone who was living off the reservation a way to cast a vote.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by AcGold

The natives of Canada were screwed just about as bad as the African- American slaves or the Pygmies. A few million isn't going to change generations of abuse and mistreatment.

It'll take education of the entire society and a change in policy to help them get it together. As it is now they will never get on the right track. People love to hate on them because of their ways now but they weren't like that without the influence of the Canadian government in tandom with the church while they tried to extinguish their culture

Don't forget the continued segregation imposed by the Canadian government and the unwillingness of either side to let it go. The reserve system certainly doesn't help the situation.

[AcGold]

Oh I didn't forget. Had a half native roommate once and had to write a paper on residential schools, after that it was kind of obvious how badly Europeans decimated their society.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Oh I didn't forget. Had a half native roommate once and had to write a paper on residential schools, after that it was kind of obvious how badly Europeans decimated their society.

You mean that you learned from him how badly Europeans decimated their society or you learned from writing this paper?

[AcGold]

Both and she was a girl. I would complain about the native problem in Saskatoon and she told me residential schools would be a good topic to do a paper on because most people don't even know they existed

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Ok, lets talk about that. Because the situation in Attawapsikat has as much to do with prior abuses of the government of Canada and the church as my love life has to do with global warning.

There is no link at all whatsoever. It has nothing to do with hating on Natives it has nothing do do with discrimination or racial bias.

It has everything to do with a woman that is running a massive con game and ripping off her own people and being fine with them freezing or suffering as long as she can stuff the pockets of friends and family and herself.

It has to do with her doing a massive rip off of tax payer dollars and then using age old wounds to protect herself from any kind of prosecution.

And its not like its a exception to the rule, there are too many senior chiefs and administrators out there that are far worse then Italian Mafia leaders.

But to simply say oh its about past abuses and racial crime is simply doing the same thing that Spence is doing and preventing the problem from being looked at objectively and maybe fixed.

And the government is under the same kind of paralysis and its completely wrong.

These problems can't be solved by throwing money at it. The reserve system can't be solved by increasing the budget, the problem now is systematic and needs to be looked at objectively without bringing all of the other stuff in.

You're misreading what I said quite significantly. I explicitly stated money is not going to solve it and disregarding all the confounding factors is ridiculous

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Don't forget the continued segregation imposed by the Canadian government and the unwillingness of either side to let it go. The reserve system certainly doesn't help the situation.

If you cancel the reserve system, what you put in its place to ensure the survival of the various cultural heritages that are integral to many First Nations communities? What do you propose to mitigate the disproportionate amount of abuse and discrimination aboriginals face at the hands of police, state officials, and other Canadians?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by rubecube

If you cancel the reserve system, what you put in its place to ensure the survival of the various cultural heritages that are integral to many First Nations communities? What do you propose to mitigate the disproportionate amount of abuse and discrimination aboriginals face at the hands of police, state officials, and other Canadians?

I don't really see Chinese or East Indian or other cultures being eradicated because they're not segregated away from society.

I would argue that some of the abuse by police and state officials and Canadians are a direct result of the reserve system and natives aren't being protect by the reserve system, and we're seeing a lot of cases of Native on Native abuse because of the reserve system.

[Brannigans Law]

Originally Posted by rubecube

If you cancel the reserve system, what you put in its place to ensure the survival of the various cultural heritages that are integral to many First Nations communities? What do you propose to mitigate the disproportionate amount of abuse and discrimination aboriginals face at the hands of police, state officials, and other Canadians?

I dont know, nothing? Maybe they should, as a people, pull up their boot straps like the Irish did in America or the Ukrainians who did in Canada. You want to talk hardship? Read all of babas children. It's a remarkable book about the hardship, the racism, the biggotry faced by Ukrainians and ultimately the flourishing of Ukrainians in Canada. They were given the worst plots of land and they worked their hands to the bone. They lived in legit poverty when they first moved here, not in a fancy trailer with satellite TV and a shiny new truck in the drive. This isn't to say that we need to just be dicks to Natives and expect them to go from the hand outs of today to fending for themselves but a happy medium has to exist.

At some point all this "institutional" racism is just a self fulfilling prophecy that can either be dealt with or used as an excuse. Case in point natives who live in Nova Scotia are apparently flourishing and doing very well for themselves. My GF who is from Cape Breton is shocked at the attitudes towards natives in the prairies because back home they're productive and have made a great life for themselves and their families.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Ok, lets talk about that. Because the situation in Attawapsikat has as much to do with prior abuses of the government of Canada and the church as my love life has to do with global warning.

There is no link at all whatsoever. It has nothing to do with hating on Natives it has nothing do do with discrimination or racial bias.

I have to disagree with this, to look at this situation in isolation, ignoring the entire history of oppression is ignorant at best. The situation that currently is unfolding is one that is common to a large number of the reserves in Canada, there is poor education, poor lifestyle practices and poor integration into modern society. This is directly related to the fact that the reserve is in the middle of nowhere and the past abuses which have absolutely desecrated a culture, and that has resulted in the population being marginalized a great deal. There is a large population of young people with poor educational achievement, a lack of role models, and few career opportunities as a result. The education system on reserves has achieved poor results and consequently the population has failed to make many significant strides forward.

I am not saying that I support Theresa Spence in any way, I think that she is an awful leader and likely is a crook who has lined her own pockets on the backs of her people, all while trying to proclaim herself as their saviours. What I would say though is that the problem is much, much deeper than Theresa Spence.

But to simply say oh its about past abuses and racial crime is simply doing the same thing that Spence is doing and preventing the problem from being looked at objectively and maybe fixed.

And the government is under the same kind of paralysis and its completely wrong.

These problems can't be solved by throwing money at it. The reserve system can't be solved by increasing the budget, the problem now is systematic and needs to be looked at objectively without bringing all of the other stuff in.

To completely ignore the problems of the past and lay the blame on the feet of people currently in power is a foolish errand at best. I agree that throwing money at the problem doesn't fix it, but what steps can realistically be taken in order to begin to properly address the issues? More importantly what steps that can be taken that don't cost money?

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

I dont know, nothing? Maybe they should, as a people, pull up their boot straps like the Irish did in America or the Ukrainians who did in Canada. You want to talk hardship? Read all of babas children. It's a remarkable book about the hardship, the racism, the biggotry faced by Ukrainians and ultimately the flourishing of Ukrainians in Canada. They were given the worst plots of land and they worked their hands to the bone. They lived in legit poverty when they first moved here, not in a fancy trailer with satellite TV and a shiny new truck in the drive. This isn't to say that we need to just be dicks to Natives and expect them to go from the hand outs of today to fending for themselves but a happy medium has to exist.

At some point all this "institutional" racism is just a self fulfilling prophecy that can either be dealt with or used as an excuse. Case in point natives who live in Nova Scotia are apparently flourishing and doing very well for themselves. My GF who is from Cape Breton is shocked at the attitudes towards natives in the prairies because back home they're productive and have made a great life for themselves and their families.

the thing is the natives were abused for generations while the Canadian government in concert with the Catholics and Anglicans purposefully tried to eliminate their culture. This isn't a pull up your bootstraps kind of situation, this is a near genocidal and generational abuse situation. The residential schools were little more than slave labor camps on many occasions. The core of their society and fundamental beliefs have been damaged by a select few in power over nearly 200 years, you can't just say oh suck it up, get over it because the government attempted to eliminate their culture while treating them as mindless slaves.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't really see Chinese or East Indian or other cultures being eradicated because they're not segregated away from society.

I think there is a difference in the implications surrounding immigrant families moving to a new country for greater opportunity and indigenous peoples being expected to assimilate into colonial society that has systemically abused them for centuries.

A number of indigenous societies also believe in more communal societies. How do you propose to support that by cancelling the reservation system?

I would argue that some of the abuse by police and state officials and
Canadians are a direct result of the reserve system

You'd need to demonstrate some data that indicates the levels of abuse and neglect faced by aboriginals off of the reserves is lower than those on the reserve. I don't believe any such data exists but I could be wrong.

and natives aren't being protect by the reserve system, and we're seeing a lot of cases of Native on Native abuse because of the reserve system.

I think claiming that native on native abuse is a result of the reserve system is pretty lazy analysis. For those that claim the reserve system doesn't work, I'd argue it's never truly been given a fair shake. Have these First Nations communities ever been given true self-determination? We're barely 20 years removed from the closing of the last residential school. Knowing that abuse has a ripple effect on communities and families that can last for multiple generations, we've barely given the indigenous population one generation to attempt healing and reconstruction.

[AcGold]

It hasn't been 20 years, '96 was the last one.

"In 1909, Dr. Peter Bryce, general medical superintendent for the DIA, reported to the department that between 1894 and 1908, mortality rates at some residential schools in Western Canada ranged from 30% to 60% over five years (that is, five years after entry, 30% to 60% of students had died, or 6–12% per annum"

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

I dont know, nothing? Maybe they should, as a people, pull up their boot straps like the Irish did in America or the Ukrainians who did in Canada. You want to talk hardship? Read all of babas children. It's a remarkable book about the hardship, the racism, the biggotry faced by Ukrainians and ultimately the flourishing of Ukrainians in Canada. They were given the worst plots of land and they worked their hands to the bone.

How many of those Ukranians were ripped away from their families and subjected to years of physical and sexual abuse? How many had their plots of land taken away from them and given to new immigrants? I must have also missed the deliberate genocide enacted on the Ukranian people by settler colonies.

The two situations aren't remotely comparable.

[AcGold]

when someone is ignorant I prefer to say uninformed, it encourages further thought and investigation instead of being interpreted as an insult even if it's completely true.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by rubecube

If you cancel the reserve system, what you put in its place to ensure the survival of the various cultural heritages that are integral to many First Nations communities? What do you propose to mitigate the disproportionate amount of abuse and discrimination aboriginals face at the hands of police, state officials, and other Canadians?

I'm not saying that I know what the answer is, but only that it is clear that the system now doesn't work. When Apartheid finally fell in South Africa, there were a lot of people saying the same things.... Many people thought that adjustment would be impossible without segregation. Any time there is significant social change somewhere, there are always a handful of people afraid to let go of the status quo when alternatives aren't spelled out right in front of them, but people adjust.

The problem is that preservation of something, be it culture, religion, language, etc., often comes at the cost of future growth and progress.

[Brannigans Law]

Originally Posted by rubecube

How many of those Ukranians were ripped away from their families and subjected to years of physical and sexual abuse? How many had their plots of land taken away from them and given to new immigrants? I must have also missed the deliberate genocide enacted on the Ukranian people by settler colonies.

The two situations aren't remotely comparable.

True but they did escape a near genocide from Stalin and the Soviets who starved 30 million Ukrainians to death. Crossed an ocean with literally nothing and were working virgin land that was considered to be garbage by the government and they got grain out of it.

edit: This is a bit of a circular argument though, that will never really be agreed upon. I'll keep thinking that natives need to stop being so driven by events that happened to their ancestors and centuries ago, and you will say that it still has lingering effects and institutional racism still exists and they have barriers. We've tried it "your way" (figure of speech) by coddling natives and destroying their society with the reserve system. I say it's time to try the sink or swim approach. It will be best for all parties involved. Take it for what it's worth.

[Johnny199r]

I recently lived in Northern Manitoba and worked as a lawyer, flying to 15 aboriginal reserves.

Many people don't realize how many reserves in this country are remote, isolated, poverty stricken and hopeless. Suicide was rampant, violence and sexual assaults were rampant, housing conditions were abysmal, the average education level for most people was grade 9, Cree was still the first language, substance abuse was rampant, people still relied on hunting caribou and fishing because food was too expensive, people still died of tuberculosis...

No one had a fear or going to jail because there was guaranteed 3 meals a day, heat, a bed and they were safer than at home (especially the kids). Think about that for a minute, jail was actually a higher standard of living.

There is a large disconnect between a reserve on the highway just outside Calgary or Edmonton and one that is several hundred km's away from civilization in the north.

My spouse is a status aboriginal (we're both lawyers) she seems to be the exception as far as success. Her mother had her life together and worked extremely hard and sent her off to the city from an early age to go to school. Her mother went to residential school and was sexually abused there. What a credit to her as a person to overcome that. Many of her former classmates were not able to overcome that experience and turned to suicide and addiction.

The simple answer is that the problems that many aboriginal people have in this country will never ever be fixed as long as people grow up these parallel 3rd world slums. The system of reserves will never end because A) Many aboriginals dont trust the government due to past assimilation attempts (ie residential schools) and are hooked on a cycle of dependence where the government does everything for them B) In order to abolish the Indian Act and move these people and have them socially integrate would cost hundreds of billions upon billions up front with massive complaints from the general populace (higher crime in cities etc) , no political party would ever risk it.

My 2 cents.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

I recently lived in Northern Manitoba and worked as a lawyer, flying to 15 aboriginal reserves.

Many people don't realize how many reserves in this country are remote, isolated, poverty stricken and hopeless. Suicide was rampant, violence and sexual assaults were rampant, housing conditions were abysmal, the average education level for most people was grade 9, Cree was still the first language, substance abuse was rampant, people still relied on hunting caribou and fishing because food was too expensive, people still died of tuberculosis...

No one had a fear or going to jail because there was guaranteed 3 meals a day, heat, a bed and they were safer than at home (especially the kids). Think about that for a minute, jail was actually a higher standard of living.

There is a large disconnect between a reserve on the highway just outside Calgary or Edmonton and one that is several hundred km's away from civilization in the north.

My spouse is a status aboriginal (we're both lawyers) she seems to be the exception as far as success. Her mother had her life together and worked extremely hard and sent her off to the city from an early age to go to school. Her mother went to residential school and was sexually abused there. What a credit to her as a person to overcome that. Many of her former classmates were not able to overcome that experience and turned to suicide and addiction.

I have spent a fair bit of time is isolated First Nations communities as well and agree that many people don't understand the way things work (or don't work) in those communities. There is a huge disconnect between the average urban Canadian and people who live in these remote communities.

The simple answer is that the problems that many aboriginal people have in this country will never ever be fixed as long as people grow up these parallel 3rd world slums.

Again, I couldn't agree more. These reserves are very harmful and I have trouble believing that they won't do more to hurt their culture than preserve it.

The system of reserves will never end because A) Many aboriginals dont trust the government due to past assimilation attempts (ie residential schools) and are hooked on a cycle of dependence where the government does everything for them B) In order to abolish the Indian Act and move these people and have them socially integrate would cost hundreds of billions upon billions up front with massive complaints from the general populace (higher crime in cities etc) , no political party would ever risk it.

My 2 cents.

That's sad, but probably true.

There are some discussions about land exchanges where First Nations can either purchase or be granted land close to urban centers so that their young people can have access to mainstream Canada, but still space and autonomy.

Do you think that could work?