How about independent doctors that prescribe medicine that they make the most profit or kick backs from? Wait that doesn't happen, my bad.
It's a good thing these drug companies just break even on vaccinations, imagine if they made billions of dollars on them! Things might get out of control like hyping mass vaccinations for everyone! These drug companies work for the common good of society, I say we should make it mandatory for them to inject us with whatever they say we need. Whoever questions these private companies need to be jailed for being stupid.
I agree, pharmaceuticals are interested in making profits and that is actually a huge problem that exists but for different reasons than what you suggest. There is less emphasis placed on developing new antibiotics for instance because the potential financial reward isn't there. The question that I have for you though, is whether something bring for profit necessarly makes it a bad thing. Oil and gas is obviously for profit, yet it heats our homes and prevents us from exposure. Pharmaceuticals are the same way, they are for profit, but at the same time they provide us with medication that is potentially lifesaving and can prevent a lot of heartbreak and suffering.
I don't believe that there are any kickbacks regarding vaccinations or any other medications in Canada.
How about independent doctors that prescribe medicine that they make the most profit or kick backs from? Wait that doesn't happen, my bad.
It's a good thing these drug companies just break even on vaccinations, imagine if they made billions of dollars on them! Things might get out of control like hyping mass vaccinations for everyone! These drug companies work for the common good of society, I say we should make it mandatory for them to inject us with whatever they say we need. Whoever questions these private companies need to be jailed for being stupid.
Wouldn't these companies make more money treating TB, Diphtheria, Tetanus, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, Hib, HPV-Cervarix, HPV-Gardasil, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Varicella, etc, rather than preventing it?
There's NOTHING WRONG with questioning any of these things. There's EVERYTHING WRONG with ignoring the answers.
Side note: I loved Rick Wamsley as a kid. Can we not dishonour the man and stop trolling the internet?
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I agree, pharmaceuticals are interested in making profits and that is actually a huge problem that exists but for different reasons than what you suggest. There is less emphasis placed on developing new antibiotics for instance because the potential financial reward isn't there. The question that I have for you though, is whether something bring for profit necessarly makes it a bad thing. Oil and gas is obviously for profit, yet it heats our homes and prevents us from exposure. Pharmaceuticals are the same way, they are for profit, but at the same time they provide us with medication that is potentially lifesaving and can prevent a lot of heartbreak and suffering.
I don't believe that there are any kickbacks regarding vaccinations or any other medications in Canada.
I don't think big pharm has any sales reps either. And if they did they would only promote their product in an ethical manner like every other privately owned company I am sure.
I don't think big pharm has any sales reps either. And if they did they would only promote their product in an ethical manner like every other privately owned company I am sure.
They do have sales reps, therefore they give money to physicians for prescribing and the physicians get rich because if it. I win at logic!
Edit: If a physician makes $250,000/yr, how much would you have to pay him to prescribe your drug for him to risk losing his license? The logic you display is astounding
Last edited by Street Pharmacist; 03-30-2014 at 09:25 PM.
I don't think big pharm has any sales reps either. And if they did they would only promote their product in an ethical manner like every other privately owned company I am sure.
Every company selling a product has sales representitives, that is how sales work. They are selling a product, a product that science has shown has been effective in reducing the rates of serious diseases. I agree that it is a murky issue to a certain degree, so don't look at what the sales people are saying, because screw them. Look at what the independent research is proving. If you would like feel free to send me a PM and I will forward you some academic, peer reviewed literature on the subject. This isn't research being produced by the big companies, rather the vast majority of it is done using a scientific method which you are free to (encouraged to) rationally critique.
They would love to do all you say, but then no one in Health Promotion at PHAC would be able to cut themselves a salary. Public Health, and especially Health Promotion has a very small piece of the pie in healthcare spending in this country.
Don't I know (I work for the CFIA, and have close ties with PHAC). Certainly not a lot of money for anything science related these days. There needs to be a culture shift on health promotion; you might not see benefits now, but could pay off big time in the future.
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One of my big issues with the anti-vaccine crowd is that their position is deeply offensive to anyone with, or who knows someone with, autism.
The position that an anti-vaccer takes is that the risk of death (which is what's being risked when one decides not to vaccinate) is preferable to the risk of autism. They are essentially stating they would rather their children die than experience autism.
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I have a patient with an autistic son that blames the mmr vaccine. Well, the father does, mother does not
I often think that a situation like that is the worst case scenario.
Father = vaccines cause autism
Mother = no they don't (or vice versa)
If they both believe it, that's a bad thing but at least it's not divisive issue in their marriage. What if they have another child? How will this affect their relationship and the health of their child moving forward? Neither parent is on the same page.
That's heartbreaking.
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I often think that a situation like that is the worst case scenario.
Father = vaccines cause autism
Mother = no they don't (or vice versa)
If they both believe it, that's a bad thing but at least it's not divisive issue in their marriage. What if they have another child? How will this affect their relationship and the health of their child moving forward? Neither parent is on the same page.
That's heartbreaking.
She gets the flu shot he won't. The issue is he first showed autistic tendencies within days of his first MMR. In the words of his dad, that's when they "lost their son"
And the divorce rate for kids on the spectrum (or kids with serious challenges in general) is bad to begin with.
I can appreciate the situation though, and it wouldn't surprise me if blaming the vaccine is as much a coping mechanism, part of grieving, as it is an actual belief.
EDIT: Didn't see Street's post, yeah "lost their son", a number of mental health professionals I've spoken with say that sometimes men in particular have a very hard time, the process can be just like the grieving process for a death.
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She gets the flu shot he won't. The issue is he first showed autistic tendencies within days of his first MMR. In the words of his dad, that's when they "lost their son"
It's a shame he won't do any research on autism. It would help "find" his son.
Autism isn't a death sentence. You can lead a long and productive life with the condition. A friend of mine is autistic, and may be the most famous person from my home town, he just gives weather reports on YouTube and has been on radio and talk shows across North America.
It's sad that people won't get educated on the issues, and say things like they "lost their child" when they are diagnosed. Can you imagine saying "my son drank cows milk for the first time and two days later showed signs of and was diagnosed with cancer, that's when we lost our son".
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It's a shame he won't do any research on autism. It would help "find" his son.
Autism isn't a death sentence. You can lead a long and productive life with the condition. A friend of mine is autistic, and may be the most famous person from my home town, he just gives weather reports on YouTube and has been on radio and talk shows across North America.
It's sad that people won't get educated on the issues, and say things like they "lost their child" when they are diagnosed. Can you imagine saying "my son drank cows milk for the first time and two days later showed signs of and was diagnosed with cancer, that's when we lost our son".
Frankie MacDonald? He's awesome, and I bet his parents are outstanding individuals too.
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A few years ago I have a few class mates corner me at university and say:
"We need to talk. We heard a rumour about you and need to know of it's true." At this point I was thinking that I'm an unassuming, fly under the radar kind of guy, what the frack could they have heard?
Then they asked "We heard you know Fankie MacDonald!!!!"
I do indeed, knew him before YouTube and a like. I don't think I ever met his parents, but he is an awesome guy through and true. If go to the ends of the earth for the kid.
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Thankfully, research into the causes of autism is ongoing, despite the anti-vaccine movement hanging onto the findings of the disgraceful Andrew Wakefield. It is just a shame that a segment of the population clings to beliefs that are completely without evidence. Science seeks out evidence, which focuses attention accordingly. In pseudoscience, the lack of evidence is the evidence.
There have been some interesting links to the gastrointestinal system of the child, and even more recently, some information showing that autism may be something that begins before birth. Fascinating stuff, and all of it is more credible than a paper discredited years ago by a fraudulent former doctor.
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I have many many many friends who develop new medicines for evil pharma corporations. Yes it's for profit in the end, however, every single one of them is there to help develop better medicines and help their family, friends, neighbors and people they don't even know if they get sick.
Drug pricing is ridiculous or often seems that way. Once you are in the industry you know why the prices are always going to look stupid to the public (this ignores the fact that depending on the healthcare situation you get drastically different prices in different countries...more expensive in the US simply because they can be. Part of the driving force is private enterprise seeking profits. No denial there).
It currently takes, on average, well over a billion (yes Billion) to get a drug to market. You will see numbers ranging from 1 to 10 billion. It depends on the area but by most accounts you are pushing $5 billion on average for a drug to get to market at this time. The reasoning is clear, researchers with the education and background to be successful don't come cheap. The development itself even if you know what you're doing is not cheap. People will spend an entire thesis making one or two medically active compounds over 4 years of intense work. For most drugs you will be looking at numerous derivatives that makes thesis work look trivial. Testing is not cheap. If you are lucky enough to get to human trials you likely won't be lucky enough to get past the stage and actually release a new drug because the trials don't show the benefits you saw during your other testing.
And to top it off you often don't have much time to actually get your money back (depends on your patent coverage) and you have to not just account for R&D costs but account for the manufacturing costs associated with having a pharma business. Those costs are not trivial and tend to make a manufacturing facility cost multiple times what a comparable "regular" chemical plant would cost....to build and run.
Long of the short of it is the pharma companies tend to be colossal beasts out of necessity. Small companies can't absorb the costs and can't withstand a drug failure in later stages of development.
Last edited by ernie; 03-31-2014 at 01:20 PM.
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There have been some interesting links to the gastrointestinal system of the child, and even more recently, some information showing that autism may be something that begins before birth. Fascinating stuff, and all of it is more credible than a paper discredited years ago by a fraudulent former doctor.
Those GI system issues are surprising - as are some of the dietary remedies... I'm really looking forward to the ongoing studies... I was REALLY skeptical when my doctor suggested it as an alternative to a large stack of prescriptions...
GFCF - This was an amazing change for me... Like getting glasses for the first time; didn't realize how bad it was, but once you've got them - you can't imagine going back. It's a totally cerebral change - almost like lifting a fog; suddenly everything becomes easier/clearer, tolerance to some things improves radically (florescent lights was the big one for me; didn't help with auditory issues though). When I make a poor choice in diet - I can tell within hours, it's rather surprising in that sense.
Candida - I keep bringing in some of these anti-candida dietary restrictions... It's even harder to follow fully than GFCF. But even incorporating some of the basics - it's a completely different result, almost purely physical. Definite improvement in some of those nagging medical irritations that never seemed to get resolved. The surprising change was in co-ordination, it's been 2-3 months since I walked into a wall - when aiming for a doorway (that was a several times a week occurrence previously). Hand eye co-ordination improved radically, and keeps improving...
Sadly - its one area I've gotta give the anti-vaxxers credit... As a couple of those nutters were the ones who proposed these methods as a 'treatment'.
I think it's also important to say that no one that accepts the efficacy of vaccines or that rolls their eyes at the phrase "big pharma" would say that the industry is without fault or could not be improved. That's the false dilemma that some seem to try to characterize the discussion with (even in this thread); if I don't reject big pharma then I think private companies and governments are perfect and can be totally trusted. Reality is far more nuanced.
There's lots that could be done to improve how things are done, especially in the area of studies and trials.
I've read some of Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma which was very interesting. I took it with a grain of salt, but Goldacre's history is pretty good and a lot of his suggestions in the area were quite reasonable.
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