Chris Butler Discussion: Sign, or Walk?

[Sylvanfan]

For 2 years at a dollar figure like he has now would be fine. After Wotherspoon the team isn't exactly overflowing with defenceman pushing for NHL jobs. That said I would not be offering him a three year 7 million Jim Vandermeer deal. I think there are veteran defenceman to be had as free agents on short terms.

[StrykerSteve]

I'm fine with how he's played over the second half of the season, re-sign.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

I read a lot of posts in this thread, but admittedly not all. Bottom line: do I believe he will be a major player here when we make the playoffs again? No

And I don't think we can get much for him even if he is signed at 2Mish going forward.

I wish him the best and thank him for his time here, but he is right now, part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

How is he part of the problem?

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

How is he part of the problem?

Being -20 isn't by mistake. Having one of the worst plus/minuses in the last 3 seasons isn't by chance. He isn't anything special so surprised so many want him re-signed. We wouldn't miss him one iotta.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Being -20 isn't by mistake. Having one of the worst plus/minuses in the last 3 seasons isn't by chance. He isn't anything special so surprised so many want him re-signed. We wouldn't miss him one iotta.

+/- really man...such an overrated stat.


Glad to see the majority want him re-signed and can see that he has been very solid for the majority of the year.

[Erick Estrada]

Wow over 73% in favour. Just goes to show Flames fans are a pretty sharp bunch and that the haters are a vocal minority after all.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by DOOM

+/- really man...such an overrated stat.


Glad to see the majority want him re-signed and can see that he has been very solid for the majority of the year.

May be overrated but still relevant. No coincidence that Butler has had one of the worst +/- three years straight. He does nothing better than average. He is easily replaceable by Wotherspoon. They both play the same game but Wotherspoon actually uses his brain during the game and doesn't just blindly throw it up the middle or the boards.

In short, Butler is no good.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

May be overrated but still relevant. No coincidence that Butler has had one of the worst +/- three years straight. He does nothing better than average. He is easily replaceable by Wotherspoon. They both play the same game but Wotherspoon actually uses his brain during the game and doesn't just blindly throw it up the middle or the boards.

In short, Butler is no good.

OK so assuming they bring Wideman back right now Wotherspoon is the #7 on the depth chart - which is probably about right. One can't just say that a guy with a dozen games of NHL experience can replace Butler. Moreover, if Wotherspoon is #6 - then what happens when you run into injuries. There is no one in the organization right now capable of playing consistent NHL minutes.

Plus/minus and vague criticisms of Butler's play aren't really indicative of how he's done this season, and more indicative of what were likely long-held opinions you had about the player.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

OK so assuming they bring Wideman back right now Wotherspoon is the #7 on the depth chart - which is probably about right. One can't just say that a guy with a dozen games of NHL experience can replace Butler. Moreover, if Wotherspoon is #6 - then what happens when you run into injuries. There is no one in the organization right now capable of playing consistent NHL minutes.

Plus/minus and vague criticisms of Butler's play aren't really indicative of how he's done this season, and more indicative of what were likely long-held opinions you had about the player.

Those are good points if this team was on the cusp of turning the corner. However, being one who subscribes to the theory of 1/3 turnover per year during a rebuild, I think he's a strong candidate for 1/3 out.

The point of rebuilding is to bring youth into the line up. They know what butler is. He's not horrible, but not difficult to replace from within the organization at some point.

Even if he's playing his best hockey as a flame right now, he's still not a top 4 defenseman.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

OK so assuming they bring Wideman back right now Wotherspoon is the #7 on the depth chart - which is probably about right. One can't just say that a guy with a dozen games of NHL experience can replace Butler. Moreover, if Wotherspoon is #6 - then what happens when you run into injuries. There is no one in the organization right now capable of playing consistent NHL minutes.

Plus/minus and vague criticisms of Butler's play aren't really indicative of how he's done this season, and more indicative of what were likely long-held opinions you had about the player.

Well you make it seem like the Flames can't go out and get a defenseman by either a trade or a UFA signing. People used the same excuse when debating Bouwmeester. Who was going to replace him? Well, we made it work and found a good defenseman in Russel. No reason we can't go out and find a guy better than Butler.

Well you haven't been paying attention if you think plus/minus and vague criticism of Butler is all I've been doing. I partake in the GT pretty much every game and point to specific plays and mistakes when talking about him.

And he also has 55 giveaways, good for second on the team and Brodie leads with 57 but the difference is Brodie has 44 takeaways and Butler has a total of 12.

He also has been on the ice for a total of 77 goals and only on for 38 goals. That's a -39 differential. No other Flame's defenceman even comes close to that.

My long time opinion is supported by stats and watching him play and yours is only supported by watching him play because the only stat that you could point to is blocked shots which he does well but not well enough to forgive his other misgivings. When I watch him play I notice he gives away the puck lots. Just checked and my stats support that with 55 giveaways. I notice he doesn't generate much offence and is a liability on the ice which he doesn't make up with creating chances. He has by far the worst stats of any of our defenceman.

Has nothing to do with long time opinions on him really. Butler is just a pretty bad defenceman. Can't skate above average, terrible hockey IQ, average shot, terrible first-pass. Tell me some things you like about him because I just don't see him doing anything special.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Well you make it seem like the Flames can't go out and get a defenseman by either a trade or a UFA signing. People used the same excuse when debating Bouwmeester. Who was going to replace him? Well, we made it work and found a good defenseman in Russel. No reason we can't go out and find a guy better than Butler.

Honestly easier said than done.

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Well you haven't been paying attention if you think plus/minus and vague criticism of Butler is all I've been doing. I partake in the GT pretty much every game and point to specific plays and mistakes when talking about him..

It has been my experience that when someone has a particular hate for a player they hone in on their errors. Most NHL dmen make a couple of glaring mistakes a game - but when you hate a particular one you will be waiting for that specific player to make his normal mistake and then jump all over it. I think it is also very hard to judge NHL dmen by watching them on TV.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

Those are good points if this team was on the cusp of turning the corner. However, being one who subscribes to the theory of 1/3 turnover per year during a rebuild, I think he's a strong candidate for 1/3 out.

The point of rebuilding is to bring youth into the line up. They know what butler is. He's not horrible, but not difficult to replace from within the organization at some point.

Even if he's playing his best hockey as a flame right now, he's still not a top 4 defenseman.

Is anyone saying he is? What on earth does this have to do with anything? The Flames need a bottom pairing dmen next year at a good salary. Butler is a known guy who is well liked in the room.

And again - I challenge folks to tell me who else in the organization can step in?

Now sure if you see substantial changes to the roster that improves the current D then perhaps you don't need him. But based on the current roster heading into next season which is really the most sensible way of judging this question - you bring him back if an appropriate contract can be agreed to.

[Stupid]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Tell me some things you like about him because I just don't see him doing anything special.

Blocking shots
Work ethic
Team/character guy
Oh and lastly; He's young and improving, showing a willingness to learn/buy in.

Not to say these are things that make him special, just things I like about him.

I'm not blown out of the water by the dude but I don't see the advantage of letting him walk. Remains to be seen if the guy replacing him is another SoB or another Chris Russel. This guy fits well, so I'd rather not upset the chemistry in the room.

[Jakester]

Terrible 1st half, solid but unspectacular second half: 1-1.5 million for one year sounds about right. He's shown a willingness to play the Flames system and he's turned into a shot blocking machine: both points in his favour.

With the possible exception of Wotherspoon, we don't have any defensive prospects ready to make the jump to the big leagues next season. I'm also not sure Wideman fits into the Flames plans going forward. With Giordano, Brodie, and Russell, we're not exactly short on offensive talent on the blue line and all three are better defensively than Wideman. I think they should trade Wideman for whatever they can get in the offseason, re-sign Butler to a cheap, short term contract, and acquire another defensive d-man, ideally with some size either as a free agent or as part of the return on Wideman.

[Stormchaser]

Please sign. He's a serviceable defenceman who can get better.

[Yrebmi]

Glad to see the poll strongly favors re-sign. I would not have guessed that by skimming posts prior to this thread. Always surprises me how vocal minorities can sway perception.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Well, I think both sides of the argument have very valid points, and I think it points to Butler being what he is at the moment - a stopgap.

Butler has improved, and he is serviceable. That is reason enough to re-sign him on a shorter-termed contract with low dollars. I really don't see a lot of teams suddenly swooping in during free-agency in a hurry to sign him (though, after Dallas swooped-in and signed Pardy, you sometimes can't be too sure).

Let's explore the 'replace' him standpoint (and not internally - Flames will need one more bottom-pairing defencemen for depth - Wotherspoon has been great, but the Flames will still need one more).

What other 5-7 defencemen are there going to be on the UFA market?
Any 'Joe Colbornes' possibly available on the cheap? Guys who are in-tough to make their teams next year, but require waivers to be reassigned to the AHL?
Any young defencemen currently under contract to teams who seem like they are ready for the NHL next year, but are being blocked by depth in their organization?

There might be another Russel, or there may not be. I don't think it is a big loss to let Butler walk, but I don't think it is a bad move to re-sign him to a short-term deal. He is a stopgap at this point, but he brings another value to the team - depth and a legitimate obstacle forcing Calgary's prospects to jump him to get to the NHL (and I mean obstacle in the positive sense - you want a kid to beat out a vet, and Butler is a 'bare-minimum' guy that doesn't do a whole lot of other things outside of blocking shots and just being 'serviceable').

The worst thing the Flames can do right now is sign him to a long-term deal (3+ years). As long as that doesn't happen, there isn't much 'wrong' one way or the other in what to do with him. The easiest solution is to just re-sign him to a 1-2 year deal and eventually in that time span, some kid is going to push him down.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Yrebmi

Glad to see the pole strongly favors re-sign. I would not have guessed that by skimming posts prior to this thread. Always surprises me how vocal minorities can sway perception.

I share your surprise at the results, but i'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay on the other side of the fence on this. I'm disappointed so many people want him back.

[BloodFetish]

Originally Posted by Stupid

Blocking shots
Work ethic
Team/character guy
Oh and lastly; He's young and improving, showing a willingness to learn/buy in.

Not to say these are things that make him special, just things I like about him.

I'm not blown out of the water by the dude but I don't see the advantage of letting him walk. Remains to be seen if the guy replacing him is another SoB or another Chris Russel. This guy fits well, so I'd rather not upset the chemistry in the room.

I'm with Stupid.

If his minutes can be managed and/or sheltered a bit I don't see why we don't resign him if it's a friendly contract.

[Zulu29]

I was on the fence but went with let him walk. The reason? Strictly size. I feel we're lacking in size on the blueline and if we can find a UFA dman who is bigger but not statically worse then I would like to go that route. Butler has played much better this season however I'd still like to try something different.