The cops arm-linking in that video really deserve a lot of praise.
A thin wall between two groups of angry people, one obviously a lot larger then the other. Fire crackers going off behind you, harmless, but you don't know what it is until it goes off.
Steel face, not showing who they support, when I am sure they have their own anger, thoughts and ideas of who is in the right.
Seems not possible, but we may still escape this with only the bloodshed from the first day.
The police do deserve praise for sure...
As far as escaping this with no more bloodshed? I hope you are right...but looking at this frothy angry nationalism I wouldn't bet on it.
I think Ukraine as we used to know it...is gone.
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The thing is Putin is introducing a lot of false moral equivalencies and misinformation into his discussions.
He sure does. So does everyone (WMD in Iraq anyone?). Or Louis Laurents` speech. It doesn't justify Putin by any means though.
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Originally Posted by FlameOn
Another bit of false equivalence Putin brings up a lot is Western intervention into other countries justifying his own use of force. Western intervention has never been about claim to territory yet here Putin is pushing laws through the Duma to "simplify" the annexation.
Western countries do not claim territory because they are looking to install pro-western goverments. The only pre-requisite for them is to be pro-western. They do not have to be democratic, progressive, human rights activists or anything. They may very well go on and install shariat laws. Russia was doing more or less the same, however it failed to keep their pro-Russian leaders afloat. So, while this is by no means an excuse, Russia basically had to resort to annexination to keep a naval fleet base, which by the way, had a legal lease agreement till 2043 but it was a serious rist that it is not going to be honored. If Russia could keep pro-Russian Yanukovich in power, we would never invade Crimea, there would be no point. Somewhat similiar when the west knows it can not win a democratic election, it resorts to coups. When Russia can't defend coups, it resorts to invasions. I hope the next step will not be somebody resorting to wars. I'm not protecting Russia, nor the west, here. I basically think that everyone's bad to bones here and this is a very dirty game all around.
Last edited by Pointman; 03-14-2014 at 11:46 PM.
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Western countries do not claim territory because they are looking to install pro-western goverments. The only pre-requisite for them is to be pro-western. They do not have to be democratic, progressive, human rights activists or anything. They may very well go on and install shariat laws. Russia was doing more or less the same, however it failed to keep their pro-Russian leaders afloat. So, while this is by no means an excuse, Russia basically had to resort to annexination to keep a naval fleet base, which by the way, had a legal lease agreement till 2043 but it was a serious rist that it is not going to be honored. If Russia could keep pro-Russian Yanukovich in power, we would never invade Crimea, there would be no point. Somewhat similiar when the west knows it can not win a democratic election, it resorts to coups. When Russia can't defend coups, it resorts to invasions. I hope the next step will not be somebody resorting to wars. I'm not protecting Russia, nor the west, here. I basically think that everyone's bad to bones here and this is a very dirty game all around.
Not that I'm condoning intervention of any kind but I think the days of Western governments putting in puppet governments like in Iran following WWII are long over. Arguably the last two armed interventions were done to remove supposed threats and the resulting governments that formed afterwards are both now openly hostile towards Western interests. Iraq is now more closely aligned to Iran than any point in it's history and Afghanistan is run by a bunch of corrupt Opium growers and thugs that have asked western powers to leave and they are leaving. Geopolitics are messy and dirty business to be sure but installation of a puppet/pro-western government in recent history wasn't necessarily the intended goal. Neither of those wars were really thought out ahead of time and far more motivated by a need for revenge.
Reports that Belarus has mobilized its military. Belarus is allied with Russia.
Given its location it could allow Russia to attack the Ukraine on two fronts... probably capturing the entire country quite quickly if they wanted to unless the Ukraine gets some help from someone.
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John McCain calls for U.S military to support Ukraine.
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Sen. John McCain called Saturday for the United States to provide long-term military assistance to Ukraine, saying it is "the right and decent thing to do".
McCain also had strong words for President Barack Obama in an op-ed appearing in The New York Times. He called for the President to take actions to restore the United States' credibility and strength around the world.
Obama's administration, McCain wrote, supports the perception that the U.S. can "pull back from the world at little cost to our interests and values. This has fed a perception that the United States is weak, and to people like Mr. (Russian President Vladimir) Putin, weakness is provocative."
Aside from the US destroyer in the Black Sea, on February 15th the USS George H. W. Bush aircraft carrier departed Norfolk for the Mediterranean. It is currently docked in Antalya, Turkey.
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Ok, lets look at American assets in the Area that they can either call on or re-enforce
The U.S. Air Force
Aviano, Italy 31st Fighter wings, 2 squadrons of F-16
Ankara, Turkey support base for personal
Buchel Germany 52nd Fighter Wing 1 Squadron F-16C
Incirlik Support Base no Permanent Aircraft
Izmir, Turkey no permanent Aircraft
Army
2nd Stryker Cav Regiment Germany
173 airborne Brigade Italy
12 Combat Aviation Brigade Germany
U.S. Army Nato Brigade Germany
10th Army air and missile defense Germany
Navy
United States Sixth Fleet
1 Destroyer Squadron
1 task force 1 carrier up to 6 cruisers and destroyers
1 Ampib Assault force
1 Marine Amphib Expeditionary Unit Assault Force (2000 Marines)
U.S, SSNs 2 with the Navy Taskforce, numbers unknown.
If the Russian's push into the Ukraine or the U.S. decides on a military option then its likely that they will either have to re-enforce, which is going to take a lot of time because of the use of heavy Lift Capability at sea.
They'll have to re-enforce their air option heavily, right now the U.S with an Aircraft Carrier in the neighborhood would still only have 150 front line strike aircraft in the area.
They can fly planes in, but there would need to be a heavy resupply effort in terms of munitions, its likely that it would probably take 2 to 3 weeks to get enough munitions into the area to support any kind of heavy air campaign.
Now some developments
Russia has re-enforced their med fleet precence with between 3 and 6 SSN's or diesel electric attack subs.
The Russian nuclear powered battlecruiser Pyotr Velikiy formerly formerly the Yuri Andropov has joined the Russian naval presence in the Med. The Kirov class battlecruiser is one of the heaviest ships in the world and what would be considered to be a battleship. Its designed as a long range missile platform designed as a command and control and anti carrier platform
The Russians have also moved the Kuznetsov into the Med as well, this ship is a funky design that incorporates a missile cruiser with an aircraft carrier, while it would be a extremely poor comparison to a U.S, Nimitz class carrier its still a marked threat
It can carry up to 33 of the SU-33 and I believe up to 15 anti-submarine helicopters.
Right now there is a naval buildup on both sides in the Med.
Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 03-16-2014 at 03:58 AM.
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If I was a country with a significant Russian population near Russia I'm want to expel all of them. Of course that would probably just initiate an invasion.
Putin has basically made it so any nation there with said significant populations are going to be walking on eggshells with that ####ty country now.
Russia is a piece of ####.
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The Ukranian government should let the Soviets have the Crimea. Then tell the rest of the "ethnic soviets" to get the hell out or be forced out.
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And another spinoff of this is why does Iran bother stopping it's nuclear aspirations now? Why should it believe anything the Russia's say about rewards for no nukes? Why would it believe anyone?
If I was a country with a significant Russian population near Russia I'm want to expel all of them. Of course that would probably just initiate an invasion.
Putin has basically made it so any nation there with said significant populations are going to be walking on eggshells with that ####ty country now.
Russia is a piece of ####.
Dont punch that Russian guy at work, it might result in a Russian invasion of Canada
I honestly think that the US and UK need to think long and hard before making any decision NOT to support the Ukraine if this gets any worse. The reason I say that, is that the Ukraine gave up its nukes in return for a promise of protection from Russia, US, and UK. If Russia fully invades the Ukraine, you can be damn sure every country in Europe and Asia will be thinking, "Well... we better get some nukes pretty damn fast."
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The USSR has Europe by the balls with them supplying a lot of energy
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Thank you for everything CP. Good memories and thankful for everything that has been done to help me out. I will no longer take part on these boards. Take care, Go Flames Go.
I honestly think that the US and UK need to think long and hard before making any decision NOT to support the Ukraine if this gets any worse. The reason I say that, is that the Ukraine gave up its nukes in return for a promise of protection from Russia, US, and UK. If Russia fully invades the Ukraine, you can be damn sure every country in Europe and Asia will be thinking, "Well... we better get some nukes pretty damn fast."
I honestly think that at the end of the day America will stand by and let whatever happens happen. I think that Putin isn't afraid to confront the American Giant, and Obama just isn't a strong enough president for this, I firmly believe that he's in heavily over his head.
The problem with this is that America's allies both in NATO and abroad are slowly starting to lose their faith in American reliance.
Ukraine gave up their nuclear arms in favor of protection, if America doesn't step up strongly other countries will decide that any treaties aren't worth the paper they're written on and we could see a re-emergence of a 80's style arms race, probably conventionally but who knows.
As it stands the American Military Presence world wide is at its lowest point since the start of the second World War and they have hostile superpowers nipping at their heels in Russia and with China not only arming, but moving from a defensive military to one capable of projecting power beyond their borders.
The next step is a return to proxy battles fought by client countries.
