Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine - Page 9 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

FlameOn · 02-28-2014, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIMking

I don't honestly know, something better than "well, uh... we're not going to allow it" talk out of our elected officials. Maybe mobilize a bunch of people in the European bases, let him know that we will do something instead of just standing idle

I'm not in military, nor am I a military strategist, but I know we cant just sit and allow this to happen

Realistically the US is going to do jack about this. They can't do anything atm. There is huge war wariness coming out of two middle eastern conflicts and the political appetite to do something militarily simply isn't there. The US didn't do anything even during the Georgian-Russian war either as it was way too close to Russia's sphere of influence. Even though there are treaties in place to defend Ukraine, I don't think they'll actually act on them.

Ukraines military chain of command is a complete mess after all the protests, change in government, etc. Ukrainians are screwed if they try to fight and if they don't unless the EU or US has the balls to bail them out. If the Ukrainians fire on Russian troops, Russia is now justified in coming down hard on the Ukrainians ala Georgia. If the Ukrainians do nothing, the Russians can just keep bringing in more troops to annex the region.

PIMking · 02-28-2014, 10:35 PM

I figured, it's a shame to see this going down...

My heart goes out to those Ukrainian's that want to be Ukrainian not Russian

Mr.Coffee · 03-01-2014, 12:52 AM

Obama's first concern beyond honouring treaties with countries that have had revolutions and by extension unclear governments is his people.

What's best for the American people, is it going to war with Russia? I think not. Also, whether you "look squeemish" or not, I'd rather have a leader that "looks weak" or some other nonsensical rhetoric and just avoids the mass casualties that will inevitably follow suit with two world powers going to war over something relatively meaningless like a boat sailing near your waters or a small piece of a broken country being annexed.

Thousands of lives on the line for ego, prestige and some BS people refer to as honour or something. It's ######ed and not worth it. If Russia had global domination plans, maybe. But this is annexing back what they believe is theirs and they are going to have to deal with the decades of revolution attempts, coups and terrorism that follows by pulling a stunt like this.

Daradon · 03-01-2014, 01:29 AM

While the US is still the worlds biggest power, I think a lot could depend on how Europe decides to act, especially the new NATO states as someone noted earlier. There's a lot of countries in that area that should take this issue seriously, 10 alone that were part of the Warsaw pact.

Not saying they have a ton of military might, but I think diplomacy is going to be the weapon of choice anyway.

Tyler · 03-01-2014, 07:06 AM

FlameOn · 03-01-2014, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daradon

While the US is still the worlds biggest power, I think a lot could depend on how Europe decides to act, especially the new NATO states as someone noted earlier. There's a lot of countries in that area that should take this issue seriously, 10 alone that were part of the Warsaw pact.

Not saying they have a ton of military might, but I think diplomacy is going to be the weapon of choice anyway.

This would be a test of how strong NATO is at that point. NATO states an attack on any NATO member constitutes a declaration of war on all member nations. How enforceable that is depends entirely on the member nations collective political will. If the US does nothing when a NATO member is threatened though, worse case we could see NATO dissolving as it'll be seen as nothing more than a paper tiger.

Ukraine has existing treaties with the western powers to come to it's defense should anyone invade as a condition for getting rid of their thousands of nukes back at the end of the cold war. Now we are seeing people justifying the invasion of the Crimea as "They're Russian speaking anyways". Same justification Neville Chamberlain used in WWII with German aggression. The Sudetenlandskaya as nik- pointed out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Betrayal
Asia has a great example flash point where this could happen and the government there has been building up.

Russia continues to move more troops in. Count is now at 6000.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-...ps-to-ukraine/

Popular mechanics is calling this the perfectly executed annexation of a country.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...raine-16545791

undercoverbrother · 03-01-2014, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlameOn

This would be a test of how strong NATO is at that point. NATO states an attack on any NATO member constitutes a declaration of war on all member nations. How enforceable that is depends entirely on the member nations collective political will. If the US does nothing when a NATO member is threatened though, worse case we could see NATO dissolving as it'll be seen as nothing more than a paper tiger.

Ukraine has existing treaties with the western powers to come to it's defense should anyone invade as a condition for getting rid of their thousands of nukes back at the end of the cold war. Now we are seeing people justifying the invasion of the Crimea as "They're Russian speaking anyways". Same justification Neville Chamberlain used in WWII with German aggression. The Sudetenlandskaya as nik- pointed out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Betrayal
Asia has a great example flash point where this could happen and the government there has been building up.

Russia continues to move more troops in. Count is now at 6000.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-...ps-to-ukraine/

Popular mechanics is calling this the perfectly executed annexation of a country.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...raine-16545791

Thank #### we didn't let The Ukraine in NATO.

Russia really is a piece of #### country.

RedHot25 · 03-01-2014, 08:02 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine...imea-1.2556228

Quote:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked parliament for permission to use the country's military in Ukraine, the Kremlin said Saturday.

Putin said the move is needed to protect ethnic Russians and the personnel of a Russian military base in Ukraine's strategic region of Crimea.

"I'm submitting a request for using the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine pending the normalization of the socio-political situation in that country," Putin said in a statement released by the Kremlin.

He sent the request to the Russian legislature's upper house, which has to approve the motion, according to the constitution.

PsYcNeT · 03-01-2014, 08:14 AM

Man, I sure hope today's leaders and diplomats are wiser than Churchill, Wilson, Roosevelt, LePetomane, etc

undercoverbrother · 03-01-2014, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Man, I sure hope today's leaders and diplomats are wiser than Churchill, Wilson, Roosevelt, LePetomane, etc

So what do you suggest the response should be?

PsYcNeT · 03-01-2014, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

So what do you suggest the response should be?

There literally is no good response.

Standoff with Russia, drag China into it because of the Shanghai Coop Org. Start WW1-lite.

Bad idea.

Concede Ukraine to Russia, violate their nopro (and in turn allow many many countries to say #### it and start building nukes), let Putin gobble up a few small countries, and start WW2-lite.

Bad idea.

worth · 03-01-2014, 08:19 AM

I don't see any options for the west. There's no way any NATO power is going to get into a shooting war over Crimea because they know the Russians won't give it up ever. They will fight to keep it in their control no matter what.

The west needs to figure out how to stabilize the rest of Ukraine as soon as possible and keep a pro EU government in control before the whole thing collapses under Russian pressure.

Why is Crimea such a big deal for the Russians? It is not the only place they can access the black sea. They have a huge coastline on the Sea. If they were to lose the port, couldn't they just move their fleet off the coast of Sochi? Put all the sailors in those new athlete housing blocks and everyone would be having a grand old time. Obviously, i'm kidding, but why couldn't they base their fleet at Novorossiysk?

PsYcNeT · 03-01-2014, 08:21 AM

Well, the British sure do love fighting with Russia over the Crimea

CofR · 03-01-2014, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Russia's upper house of parliament voted Saturday to approve the use of military force in Ukraine. The vote was unanimous.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/...ics/index.html

FlameOn · 03-01-2014, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CofR

Russia's upper house of parliament voted Saturday to approve the use of military force in Ukraine. The vote was unanimous.

Was anyone expecting another outcome? At this point the Duma and Russian parliament are just a rubber stamping body with Putin really welding true power.

Cheese · 03-01-2014, 08:40 AM

get ready for a big cluster#### now

FlamesAddiction · 03-01-2014, 08:47 AM

I used to work with a girl from Estonia who was ethnic Russian. She was going on one time about how Estonia is Russia and blah blah blah.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for protecting the rights of minorities, but it seems like the Russian minorities in the former SSRs don't care to cooperate.

undercoverbrother · 03-01-2014, 08:50 AM

I still believe that "the west" would win a war against the Russians.

Beyond their top end troops, I think we match up really well

A horrible part of me that I keep repressed says "let's do it".

CaramonLS · 03-01-2014, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I still believe that "the west" would win a war against the Russians.

Beyond their top end troops, I think we match up really well

A horrible part of me that I keep repressed says "let's do it".

Meanwhile, China sits on the sidelines?

Brannigans Law · 03-01-2014, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Thank #### we didn't let The Ukraine in NATO.

Russia really is a piece of #### country.

Ukraine. It's not "The Ukraine" its just "Ukraine".

Also, they gave up their nukes under the promise of defense and respect of their borders. That's not something we should turn our backs to (NATO). Ukraine is a west leaning country being shaken down by the Russians. They're our friends and allies and America made a deal with them. The west should stand with Ukraine and help them out.