College football star, Michael Sam - potentially the first publicly gay NFL player?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Slava

Really? You can't admit that mixing people of different sexualities or preferences getting naked and showering might make people uncomfortable? I have no idea why I'm wasting my time trying to have a rational discussion with you in that case.

Now that you bring that up though, it does make me wonder about public change rooms. I'll even give you an example and you tell me what you think. I took my children to swimming lessons at the local Y. One little boy in the class has a parent who is either a transvestite, or man who dresses "mostly" like a woman. I suppose its possible that this person is an incredibly ugly lady, but I would bet my life savings that this is not the case.

Anyway, the question is which change room should that person head into? Does "he" take his son into the boys change room? I mean it clearly doesn't matter to you guys, because "what do you think is going to happen?" and all those kinds of things, so forgive my ignorance for even asking, but I do wonder. Surely people can admit that this kind of thing might make them uncomfortable and it doesn't make them homophobic or discriminatory?

To the first paragraph, it may make some people uncomfortable, but it doesn't really matter. It's their right to not be persecuted for their sexual orientation. So if it makes someone uncomfortable that there's a gay guy next to them in the locker room, it's that persons problem to deal with, not the gay person.

In your example, that is an interesting question and I had a sort-of similar situation once myself. I was selling ski-boots to a man who was a woman. We were told in training that ski-boots are designed differently for males and females body structures and that we shouldn't be selling mens boots to women and vice versa. Needless to say I was confused about what to do and asked my manager, but I was not uncomfortable dealing with the person. The change room is obviously something different. I would say if you're "being" a woman, go to the womans change room to avoid someone saying "Uhh this is the mens room" and having an awkward encounter/explanation. And they should probably find a private place to change in the womens locker room, but I guess that would depend on how comfortable they are answering questions and dealing with potential problems. I think the transvestite question is a bit more difficult to pin point than the homosexual one.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by MattyC

It's their right to not be persecuted for their sexual orientation. So if it makes someone uncomfortable that there's a gay guy next to them in the locker room, it's that persons problem to deal with, not the gay person.
.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

You understand that women ≠ gay men, right?

I am being purposefully obtuse to try and get you to stop using coded language. Real talk, why are you saying this uncomfortable to "some people". What is uncomfortable about that? Is it because those "some people" are homophobic? And if so, why are we catering to those people?

And I think that explains why I'm done with this. I gave it a shot to try to discuss this rationally, but frankly its a waste of time.

[strombad]

I really don't understand what Slava is getting at by bringing up women, or how it relates to this situation at all.

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by Slava

And I think that explains why I'm done with this. I gave it a shot to try to discuss this rationally, but frankly its a waste of time.

Seriously, what about changing in a room with a gay man would make some people uncomfortable? What do these people think is going to happen?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

Seriously, what about changing in a room with a gay man would make some people uncomfortable? What do these people think is going to happen?

It's not about what is going to happen, and we're aren't talking about choices, but uncontrolled feelings. Would you feel uncomfortable changing in a women's changeroom full of women? Probably, at least most men would.

I agree, it's your own problem if you feel that way and not everyone else's, but let's not pretend we're all so enlightened and wonderful that we don't understand it. That's absurd

[Locke]

Look, I like helicoptering in the lockerroom as much as the next person, but for the most part people should be changing in the lockerroom and not much else.

Seriously, if a gay dude was checking me out in the lockerroom I'd probably be flattered more than anything else as my junk is clearly bringing all the ladies and the guys to the yard. Yiss!

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sorry hard to read

spoilered because it needs to be

Spoiler!

Was that English? What does any of that even mean? Give what to God?

I've beaten people over the head with a keyboard and produced more coherent paragraphs than that.

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

It's not about what is going to happen, and we're aren't talking about choices, but uncontrolled feelings. Would you feel uncomfortable changing in a women's changeroom full of women? Probably, at least most men would.

I agree, it's your own problem if you feel that way and not everyone else's, but let's not pretend we're all so enlightened and wonderful that we don't understand it. That's absurd

Once again gay men ≠ women, I don't understand why it keeps coming back to this.

Uncontrolled feelings? So a gay man sees you undressing and the unstoppable urge comes over them that they have to act on it. Seriously?

Once again, odds are in your life you have changed with a gay person and nothing happened.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

It's not about what is going to happen, and we're aren't talking about choices, but uncontrolled feelings. Would you feel uncomfortable changing in a women's changeroom full of women? Probably, at least most men would.

I agree, it's your own problem if you feel that way and not everyone else's, but let's not pretend we're all so enlightened and wonderful that we don't understand it. That's absurd

But this isn't about having women in the change room. If you want to put it in that context it would be more from the gay person's perspective as they are the ones changing around a bunch of people from the sex are attracted to, not the other way around.

And again, it's really beside the point. It's the mens locker room. Men change in there, straight or gay.

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

Once again gay men ≠ women, I don't understand why it keeps coming back to this.

Uncontrolled feelings? So a gay man sees you undressing and the unstoppable urge comes over them that they have to act on it. Seriously?

Once again, odds are in your life you have changed with a gay person and nothing happened.

I think he meant more that being gay isn't a choice, it is uncontrolled.

But I agree. There seems to be an underlying notion that since a gay man is attracted to men, he must be at risk of sexually harrassing/assaulting all nude men he encounters. Why else would it make someone uncomfortable? Theres a gay guy in our office who I have stood beside at the urinal and I've never once caught him taking a peak. I've never even thought about it until now.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

Once again gay men ≠ women, I don't understand why it keeps coming back to this.

Uncontrolled feelings? So a gay man sees you undressing and the unstoppable urge comes over them that they have to act on it. Seriously?

Once again, odds are in your life you have changed with a gay person and nothing happened.

They both want the D...?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

Once again gay men ≠ women, I don't understand why it keeps coming back to this.

Uncontrolled feelings? So a gay man sees you undressing and the unstoppable urge comes over them that they have to act on it. Seriously?

Once again, odds are in your life you have changed with a gay person and nothing happened.

Ok. Let me spell it out for you. You seem to want to be obtuse. I'm not an idiot, I know Gay men are not women. Holy hell your good at conversing.

Why are women's and men's locker rooms separated? No one is worried about "what would happen", but nakedness is innately uncomfortable, moreso by perception of being judged. There is ample scientific evidence to back that up. A man would feel more uncomfortable being naked if they felt like they were being judged. I'm not going further with this, because both you and I know it doesn't need explanation, but you feel the need to seem "above" these base and very normal feelings.

When I said "uncontrolled feelings" I was talking about the person feeling judged. They are going to feel that way whether they like it or not.

As for your moral superiority, I have openly gay friends, relatives and employees. I would have no problem being in a changeroom with a gay man, but it is reasonable someone may feel that way. In fact it's NORMAL

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

Once again gay men ≠ women, I don't understand why it keeps coming back to this.

Uncontrolled feelings? So a gay man sees you undressing and the unstoppable urge comes over them that they have to act on it. Seriously?

Once again, odds are in your life you have changed with a gay person and nothing happened.

I covered this already:

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Gays are know to be more promiscuous, that is a proven fact. If they are in a room of swining junk they will not be able to control themselves..........you can't argue the point......

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I would have no problem being in a changeroom with a gay man, but it is reasonable someone may feel that way. In fact it's NORMAL

That may be, but that "normal" is going to need to change. It's normal because many people (specifically older people) have not been exposed/educated about it, and thus it is abnormal to them and makes them uncomfortable. But again, that's their issue and shouldn't dictate the rights of other people.

At one point it was normal for white people to be uncomfortable sharing water fountains with black people. It was also normal for women to basically be slaves to their men. Things change and the people that are slower to change or uncomfortable with change have to deal.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MattyC

There seems to be an underlying notion that since a gay man is attracted to men, he must be at risk of sexually harrassing/assaulting all nude men he encounters. Why else would it make someone uncomfortable?Theres a gay guy in our office who I have stood beside at the urinal and I've never once caught him taking a peak. I've never even thought about it until now.

There's no one saying that.

Getting naked in front of strangers is difficult for MOST people to begin with. If you add in the fear that someone who likes looking at naked men/women might actually peak, it increases. How can people not see this?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

There's no one saying that.

Getting naked in front of strangers is difficult for MOST people to begin with. If you add in the fear that someone who likes looking at naked men/women might actually peak, it increases. How can people not see this?

I can see where you are coming from, I can.

I put it down to people's insecurity more than anything.

I joked about it earlier, but seriously, if a man or women thinks my naked body is worth looking at, then I put that feather in my cap and rock on.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MattyC

That may be, but that "normal" is going to need to change. It's normal because many people (specifically older people) have not been exposed/educated about it, and thus it is abnormal to them and makes them uncomfortable. But again, that's their issue and shouldn't dictate the rights of other people.

At one point it was normal for white people to be uncomfortable sharing water fountains with black people. It was also normal for women to basically be slaves to their men. Things change and the people that are slower to change or uncomfortable with change have to deal.

That's fine, but these feelings go deeper more than race relations. Nakedness and sexuality are deeper than learned behaviours.

Our ONLY point is that many people will feel uncomfortable, and that's normal. Is it the gay man in the lockerroom's problem? No

We're talking past each other. I'm saying it's a hurdle, you're saying it shouldn't be. That's fine. We agree.

What is really freaking irritating is these obtuse arguments. If we want discussion, let's be honest about feelings. There's no "coded" language, just one poster trying to appear to just not understand because they're so enlightened

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sorry hard to read

spoilered because it needs to be

Spoiler!

Wow, what an idiot. Bruce should be more careful considering the advanced stage of his career. Judging by his grasp of the english language I wouldn't be surprised if his last CFL paycheck is the last check he recieves that doesn't come from the government. He should not be making comments off the field that could cause teams to question his worth on the field.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

There's no one saying that.

Getting naked in front of strangers is difficult for MOST people to begin with. If you add in the fear that someone who likes looking at naked men/women might actually peak, it increases. How can people not see this?

Well that's why I said it seems to be an underlying notion.

To those people I would say, well the people in the pool on the otherside that find you attractive are going to view you that way regardless. You might as well get comfortable. If being naked amongst others really makes you neurotically uncomfortable, you should stay away from public change rooms. Sorry, but again, a person being uncomfortable should not be accomodated when infringing on the rights of others. There's gay people in the change room whether or not they have a big neon sign stating as such.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I can see where you are coming from, I can.

I put it down to people's insecurity more than anything.

I joked about it earlier, but seriously, if a man or women thinks my naked body is worth looking at, then I put that feather in my cap and rock on.

Thank you. We're born insecure about our nakedness. Why does virtually every culture in earth regardless of climate wear clothes?

It is peoples insecurities and it is not the problem of the gay person in locker room. But it does exist and is normal, and people will have to get over that

[CaptainCrunch]

You can totally cut the sexual tension in here with a knife.