You're arguing that it doesn't help. You're wrong.
It does EXACTLY that: help.
High draft picks does not an elite team make, but for teams that put the work in it certainly helps the process. Good teams are built by astute management, but having high level players is a general requirement of being a high level time.
You brought up Detroit, excellent example. After years of poor drafting in the 1st round (save for Kronwall) and trading that pick, where are they now? They were elite 3-4 years ago, but they've been falling down to earth ever since because of the lack of young high end talent on their roster.
Drafting high helps. It's not how you build a great team, but to write it off as having no correlation is misinformed.
Detroit will be fine. Their prospect depth is pretty good and their development system is arguably the best in the NHL.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Before you call me a pessimist or a downer, the Flames made me this way. Blame them.
I'd like to see 1-14 seeded by lottery with a weighted and rolling average. Once each pick is awarded, the averages begin to skew in favor of the worse teams, so that it's very unlikely that teams in the bottom 5 finish outside of the bottom 10.
You could even add a cap that no team can draft more than 5 spots below where they finished. So, if 1-5 have been seeded and the worst team in the league isn't one of them, they automatically get the 6th pick.
Detroit will be fine. Their prospect depth is pretty good and their development system is arguably the best in the NHL.
You're missing the point. Elite teams are almost always teams that have top 5 picks on their team. You can still be competitive and make the playoffs with great development, good management, and the like, but the truly elite teams are generally teams that have either drafted near the top or acquired players at that level.
There is simply no denying the level of talent at the top of the draft being essential to building a top team. It's not the only piece, but it's certainly a piece.
I agree that no team should be picking 1st twice in a row let alone 3 times in 4 years and on pace for 4th time in 5 years.
If you draft 1st overall, it means you were the worst team in the league. If you're doing it constantly then the system has no meaning because the worst team isnt getting any better.
So, while the NHL has this lottery system there is incentive to fail. Perhaps what the system needs is not so much a revamp of the odds, but a check and balance.
Something along the lines of; If you draft 1st overall twice in a row, thats fine, but it means that you're not getting any better, so you can have your two #1 draft picks, but you have to play against some easier opposition, so the next season you play in the AHL.
That way the team can have their shiny new toys, but its going to cost them a significant financial burden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja
The Avs tanked big time.
One of the biggest dives in the history of professional sports.
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Have there been any recent examples? And no I don't mean the Oilers recent draft history as I don't think they have been "tanking"
I don't think the players try to tank. But there are examples of management and coaching groups intentionally icing inferior teams to gain the top pick.
The most recent was the Ovechkin/Malkin draft class. The Penguins sold a huge chunk of their roster and received nothing more valuable than a 3rd round pick as compensation for any of the pieces.
You're missing the point. Elite teams are almost always teams that have top 5 picks on their team. You can still be competitive and make the playoffs with great development, good management, and the like, but the truly elite teams are generally teams that have either drafted near the top or acquired players at that level.
There is simply no denying the level of talent at the top of the draft being essential to building a top team. It's not the only piece, but it's certainly a piece.
I'm not denying that it helps to draft that elite talent, but Detroit has great scouting and an excellent player development system. Those things are far more important than a top draft pick.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Before you call me a pessimist or a downer, the Flames made me this way. Blame them.
I think the fact that this is getting discussed within the league insinuates there's a belief by some that tanking is a real issue and that simply picking 1st overall has taken precedence over simply operating a team running teams the right way.
Maybe the league should have a rule for mandatory firing of management and player development staff for teams that continually finish in the bottom 5. That would do more to help those teams (and their prospects) than giving them a welfare draft pick. Teach a man to fish...
(tongue in cheek obviously)
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I don't think the players try to tank. But there are examples of management and coaching groups intentionally icing inferior teams to gain the top pick.
The most recent was the Ovechkin/Malkin draft class. The Penguins sold a huge chunk of their roster and received nothing more valuable than a 3rd round pick as compensation for any of the pieces.
The most recent is the 2014 Edmonton Oilers. Talking about drafting Ekblad with 40 games left in the season, trading Smid for nothing..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Before you call me a pessimist or a downer, the Flames made me this way. Blame them.
Maybe the league should have a rule for mandatory firing of management and player development staff for teams that continually finish in the bottom 5. That would do more to help those teams (and their prospects) than giving them a welfare draft pick. Teach a man to fish...
NM, you edited tongue-in-cheek in there too late for me to catch it haha.
I'm not denying that it helps to draft that elite talent, but Detroit has great scouting and an excellent player development system. Those things are far more important than a top draft pick.
The excellent scouting and player development hasn't delivered in impact player in about 8 years. Detroit's management accumen means they've managed to hang on to mediocrity without young impact players. But it's no substitute for the addition of elite young talent. And when Datsyuk moves on, I expect Detroit to rebuild.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick Estrada
I think the fact that this is getting discussed within the league insinuates there's a belief by some that tanking is a real issue and that simply picking 1st overall has taken precedence over simply operating a team running teams the right way.
Or maybe the league just thinks sending the elite draft-eligible players to the same handful of mismanaged teams season after season is not desirable, and they should spread the wealth a bit wider.
I'm not denying that it helps to draft that elite talent, but Detroit has great scouting and an excellent player development system. Those things are far more important than a top draft pick.
Yeah but their good fortunes of striking gold with late round picks isn't sustainable and we are finally starting to see them decline. Their best players are getting old and they don't have a lot of top level talent in their cupboards although Mantha looks pretty good.
Or maybe the league just thinks sending the elite draft-eligible players to the same handful of mismanaged teams season after season is not desirable, and they should spread the wealth a bit wider.
I think they are worried less about the players and more about the organizations. More a message to perennial bad teams that they need to look at making changes to their organizations as continually being doormats isn't going to be continually rewarded with being the darlings of the draft. I think the league saw what happened last season with the Avalanche and even the Flames icing the Heat post deadline that this is a real problem and they don't want fans paying tickets to see teams not trying to win.
I think they are worried less about the players and more about the organizations. More a message to perennial bad teams that they need to look at making changes to their organizations as continually being doormats isn't going to be continually rewarded with being the darlings of the draft. I think the league saw what happened last season with the Avalanche and even the Flames icing the Heat post deadline that this is a real problem and they don't want fans paying tickets to see teams not trying to win.
Because it isnt sustainable. Edmonton has one of the most rabid fanbases in the league and even with their shiny #1 draft picks their fans are donning their 'battle sweatpants' and sharpening their pitchforks.
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They can keep the rules the same. But I think for a team like Edmonton. After Bettman goes up to the Mic he looks out and he says.
"Oh big surprise Edmonton drafts first AGGAIN!, whatever you losers are on the clock"
Then Katz and his kids and Lowe with a smirk and Mac-T with a bold smile stand up holding a Edmonton jersey and begin to strut up to the stage. Suddenly the speakers crackle
The collective Edmonton party goes up on the stage with their heads down. Bettman reaches out to shake Lowe's hand with a look of contempt on his face, when Lowe reaches out to shake his hand Bettman pulls his hand back and runs it through his hair. He goes up to Mac-T and puts his finger on Mac-T's kmart tie and the dummy falls for it. Bettman slams his fist into Mac-T's face while yelling, "This is bold dummy"
Katz's kids look up in terror and whimper, as Bettman spins them around and launches them into the audience with two well placed butt kicks.
Katz steps back and flinches as Bettman does that thrusting his head forward bully what are you gonna do about it motion, then Bettman mutters that he isn't worth it.
Finally a shaken Lowe gets to the podium, and takes a break "The Edmonton Oilers are proud to draft Aaron Ekblad"
Bettman
Lowe looks shaken and says "How about Sam Reinhart?"
Bettman
6 hours later Lowe has gone over the whole draft eligible list to negative response by Bettman. Finally Lowe throws up his hands and screams "Then who who can we have"
Bettman pats Lowe on the shoulder and says "I am going to give you a guy that is bettern then any of your defensemen, and he's handy too, and by the way you'll like him"
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The Draft order is determined by the standings on Trade deadline day, or the draft order is determined when the first team in the NHL clinches a playoff spot. (only for teams who ultimately miss the playoffs - some rules would have to be written in about games in hand)... Or based on teams point production after 60 games, etc.
There is certainly merit in the worst teams having a better pick, but this whole crap the rest of the season is garbage. You also want all teams trying to win every game especially in the playoff hunt.
It would be like if in car racing, the league awarded the last place car with the best tires every year. No one would argue that good quality tires can't help you win the race, but if your driver doesn't know what he is doing and the rest of the car is a piece of crap, it won't matter.
Eventually, people will come to the conclusion that maybe it would be a better idea to let some of the teams with a decent driver and car (but lacking good tires) have a chance at the best tires to see what they can do with them.
With the salary cap and loser points, the line between the haves and have-nots has become a lot fuzzier. Something as simple as a few shootout losses can make a big difference in where a team drafts, but there is no way anyone could conclusively say that a team with a less luck in the SO is necessarily more talent deprived than the other team.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 02-04-2014 at 11:39 AM.
