I work for Mayor Nenshi, ask me anything!

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Bunk, Thanks for your replies.

Has late night service been tried before on a NYE, Halloween or even Stampede type event? Any data to share?

LRT runs 24 hours a day throughout Stampede. Frequencies are reduced during the very late night though.

There has been some political appetite to expand late night service in various measures. For instance, there was some talk a few years ago about running the #3 bus (highest volume bus route in the city and a far-reaching cross-town route) 24 hours a day.

There's a few competing priorities and some other details to take into account though when considering various options.

With the LRT, there is actually maintenance of track and way that goes on during the few hours of the night that it doesn't run and having it run 24 hours a day on a regular basis would compromise this and solutions are tough to come by. It would mean more frequent weekend track closures throughout the system.

One issue I've always foreseen with the "vomit comet" late night train/bus service is that a lot of people would use it to get to the station nearest to their residence, but then what? Certainly the people that balked at getting a cab from the bar aren't going to call a cab to the station. Walking would be an option for some. What I think you'd see a lot of is people parking at the station, taking the train to the bar, taking the train back to the station and then driving the rest of the way home drunk where they are less likely to get stopped by the police. I suppose in one sense that it diminishes the distance that people are driving drunk.

What about the people that are sure to pass out on the train on the way home? The operator/transit cops probably kick them off at the terminal station, and then what? Are they really that much better off if, say, their "home" station is Marlborough and they are way up in Saddletownehillsridgelakevillewood? This exact situation is something the transit union would bring up as a safety concern too, I'm sure.

Another issue is the funding balance that has to be struck. The truth is that, from a ridership demand perspective, peak hour, midday and weekend service far outweighs the need for service in the middle of the night. If you're going to direct funds toward more service, it would be difficult to justify service at 3 AM to hundreds and thousands of people being left at bus and train stops every weekday morning and afternoon because buses and trains are full. Not saying there isn't an argument for public safety and providing a more comprehensive service, but there certainly isn't a lack of other demands.

[V]

I would think that the City could get by with a very small amount of busses during after hours. Just dedicate a bus per station and provide a quasi-direct service to the patrons taking the train. In St. Albert after standard hours they have 2 busses to service the entire city, and it seems to work out pretty well.

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Bmuzyka

Bunk, is it illegal for home owners to pile snow on the street, rather than their lawn? If so, someone from the city needs to drive through Arbour Lake, and West Citadel. There is basically no street parking available on the side streets, because everyone is putting all the snow on the road instead of their grass.

I believe they can, as long as the snow is from the city sidewalk and not a private one.

From the bylaw: "The owner or occupant of a parcel of land adjacent to a Street may remove ice and snow from the Sidewalk or Pathway adjacent to the parcel and place it on the Roadway or Boulevard of a Street but shall not remove any ice or snow from the rest of the parcel and place it on the Roadway or Boulevard of a Street."

[Bmuzyka]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk

I believe they can, as long as the snow is from the city sidewalk and not a private one.

From the bylaw: "The owner or occupant of a parcel of land adjacent to a Street may remove ice and snow from the Sidewalk or Pathway adjacent to the parcel and place it on the Roadway or Boulevard of a Street but shall not remove any ice or snow from the rest of the parcel and place it on the Roadway or Boulevard of a Street."

These houses are very obviously putting all their driveway snow on the road. Twenty feet of sidewalks should now be making 4 foot tall snow banks

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

LRT runs 24 hours a day throughout Stampede. Frequencies are reduced during the very late night though.

Thanks for that post. Just edited down, to a very applicable point.

If its shown to work during Stampede, why then not extend it for other the big party night(s) of the year?

During those 10 days, Are buses running 24 hours - specifically, the 2-3am hours, from the terminals to coincide with LRT?

The track maintenance was not considered, and surely weather and holiday scheduling complicate it. That said, it is one night vs ten nights.

Do yourself /Bunk see a justifiable opportunity in service, to accommodate our citizens during NYE?

[frinkprof]

^Buses don't run 24 hours during Stampede, just the LRT.

Honestly, it depends what you mean by "it's shown to work during Stampede." The Stampede 24 hour service may just be a longstanding gimmick service that isn't actually justified in terms of ridership or safety, when weighed against the funding and compromises made to provide it. It may be rooted more in precedent than anything and perhaps should be examined itself.

I don't know the answer either way, but just saying that because 24 hour service is provided during Stampede doesn't necessarily provide a strong case for expanding to other events, much less full time.

[PsYcNeT]

But isn't a deep analysis of cost vs ridership ignoring the bigger issue of the city either willingly or inadvertently promoting drinking and driving, thereby putting the general public at risk?

Or on a less alarmist note, reducing the potential income of late-hour establishments?

[Jimmy Stang]

To me, it doesn't really matter if shovelling snow onto the road is legal or not, it is unnecessary and ridiculous. Many residential roads are full of snow and ruts already, city crews have been trying to remove it for weeks, residents are complaining non-stop about it, SO LET'S THROW MORE SNOW ONTO THE ROAD!

Sure, you've got to clear a path to your driveway which creates some piles on each side. But adding snow to the road from sidewalks and driveways? Purely idiotic.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

^Buses don't run 24 hours during Stampede, just the LRT.

Honestly, it depends what you mean by "it's shown to work during Stampede." The Stampede 24 hour service may just be a longstanding gimmick service that isn't actually justified in terms of ridership or safety, when weighed against the funding and compromises made to provide it. It may be rooted more in precedent than anything and perhaps should be examined itself.

I don't know the answer either way, but just saying that because 24 hour service is provided during Stampede doesn't necessarily provide a strong case for expanding to other events, much less full time.

Well then why keep the LRT running 24/7 during Stampede, without bus service? There's objectionable reasons to LRT running late on NYE, yet for 10x as many days the LRT runs 24/7 and there's no justifiable reason?

My opinion? It was never seriously considered by the City until citizens brought it up in December, but there was not enough time to deal with logistics & scheduling.

I look forward to late LRT service on NYE 2014.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by V

I would think that the City could get by with a very small amount of busses during after hours. Just dedicate a bus per station and provide a quasi-direct service to the patrons taking the train. In St. Albert after standard hours they have 2 busses to service the entire city, and it seems to work out pretty well.

Right, but at what cost and for what benefit when weighed against just providing more service during times when people are regularly being left stranded at stops?

To provide any semblance of good coverage would take dozens of buses providing hundreds of precious service hours. Let alone that the type of bus matters. The union agreement specifies a minimum split of big buses vs. shuttle buses. This type of service would work much better as a shuttle, but would compromise that split so a lot of money would have to be wasted on using big buses. You also run into the same problem as you do with the cabs, except that it's formalized with a union - that is trying to get drivers to run a bunch of drunks around in the wee hours of the morning.

Not to make it a black and white issue, but there's an element to this discussion that is actually a good example of the struggle between the opposing philosophies of ridership vs. coverage. The Route Ahead long-term transit strategy suggests that Calgary shift the balance more toward satisfying ridership, rather than ensuring that every single person who lives in Yahupitseville or South Bucktussle has a bus stop with regular service 400 meters or less from their home.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Well then why keep the LRT running 24/7 during Stampede, without bus service? There's objectionable reasons to LRT running late on NYE, yet for 10x as many days the LRT runs 24/7 and there's no justifiable reason?

I didn't say that there's no justifiable reason, I'm saying that I don't know if it's ever been looked at in that way. I'm saying that I don't really know, and I'm not sure anyone does. It has just always been.

I'm not arguing against service on Halloween or New Years Eve either, I'm just putting some points out there to consider. Transit service can be improved in just about every way possible but you can't do it all at once. Effective late night service on New Years Eve, Halloween, St. Patrick's Day is but one of those options.

[V]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Right, but at what cost and for what benefit...

That's what I'd be interested in knowing. Surely there's enough data out there from the Stampede service. I'd be curious to know if the City has compiled the costs and benefits associated with additional service during Stampede. Ridership and costs are easily quantifiable, the social benefits are obviously less so.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Another issue is the funding balance that has to be struck. The truth is that, from a ridership demand perspective, peak hour, midday and weekend service far outweighs the need for service in the middle of the night. If you're going to direct funds toward more service, it would be difficult to justify service at 3 AM to hundreds and thousands of people being left at bus and train stops every weekday morning and afternoon because buses and trains are full. Not saying there isn't an argument for public safety and providing a more comprehensive service, but there certainly isn't a lack of other demands.

As it relates to the train specifically, aren't we talking completely different orders of magnitude in debottlenecking downtown vs. a couple of service hours? Sacrificing latenight service isn't noticeably pushing the 8th Ave subway forwards, so it seems like there's a bit of a false dichotomy here.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I'm not arguing against service on Halloween or New Years Eve either, I'm just putting some points out there to consider. Transit service can be improved in just about every way possible but you can't do it all at once. Effective late night service on New Years Eve, Halloween, St. Patrick's Day is but one of those options.

In regards to NYE, does it have to be either or? Even in London and Paris they get a corporate sponsor to cover at least part of the cost of providing late-night service on NYE. And while they do have larger audiences, they also have larger and more costlier to operate systems.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by fotze

I think increasing cab availability is a better way to tackle the issue. Just can't see public transit having any meaningful impact. The drunken public is willing to pay and has money burning a hole in their pocket, no need to get the non-drunken public to foot the bill much more inefficiently.

Sell 300 plates, that ARE ONLY able to bill between 5pm & 5am, with a special City of Calgary Evening Livery License. The cabs have proper identifying signage "evening cab only, and fines to keep those in line. There are GPS/AVL systems that they have that can easily accommodate most of the dispatch and logistical asks the public is asking for.

Transport Canada is already working with the big trucking companies on digitizing log books, and reviewing it on the rigs modems. The same can be applied with the City implementing GPS/AVL monitoring of the "Evening Livery License" fleet and fining appropriately.

Most importantly, the City needs to ensure they hire the right people - say consultant - to advise, and guide to implementation.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Sell 300 plates, that ARE ONLY able to bill between 5pm & 5am, with a special City of Calgary Evening Livery License. The cabs have proper identifying signage "evening cab only, and fines to keep those in line.

I wouldn't mind if Calgary allowed for Minicabs.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Addick

I wouldn't mind if Calgary allowed for Minicabs.

Insurance for a part time Livery vehicle, is cost prohibitive.

Originally Posted by fotze

None can be affiliated with the existing big companies.

Good point. They'll just re-assign those licenses to drivers who already work evenings.

[PsYcNeT]

New York City
Area - 1,213 square km
Population - 8.2 million
Cabs - 15,000
Cabs per person - 1 per 550

Calgary
Area - 825 square km
Population - 1.2 Million (~1/7th New York)
Cabs - 1,500 (1/10th New York)
Cabs per person - 1 per 800

Another ~650 licences would put us on par with New York. Another 300 would put us on par with most legit cities in NA.

[Temporary_User]

You can't compare the situation with NYC. NYC gets more tourists that require cabs. But everyone in NYC is taking shorter trips so the turnover is quicker.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by SebC

As it relates to the train specifically, aren't we talking completely different orders of magnitude in debottlenecking downtown vs. a couple of service hours? Sacrificing latenight service isn't noticeably pushing the 8th Ave subway forwards, so it seems like there's a bit of a false dichotomy here.

What? You're mixing up operations and capital expenditures/budgets.

Annual transit service hours don't directly relate or compete with capital projects like 8th Avenue Subway (as an aside, I kind of wish you had a broader view of things than just honing in on 2 or 3 specific projects, elements or factoids such as 8th Avenue Subway or "THE SUBSIDY" and suffocating everyone with them by the way, but that's an issue for another day).

Maybe I should have been more clear by listing some examples, but I'm talking about pitting late night service versus more frequent service every weekday on congested routes such as the 301, 20, 4, 5, etc. I'd be willing to bet giving some of these or several other routes more service at 10 PM on Sundays would have more benefit per cost in terms of ridership and arguably more societal benefit by providing more people with options for when they want to travel than doing the late night service thing. That's just in the transit realm. Measures to fix the taxi problem or changes to laws concerning how drinking establishments can operate should also be in play.

Besides, the issue with fixing the New Years Eve problem with public transit (in particular that is, every other Friday/Saturday night in the year if you want to go further) is that it takes much more than a few extra trains doing a few extra runs. That's the cheap part. To make it effective, you have to have feeder buses running from the train stations because you can't just take a bunch of drunk people out to a train station and leave them there because for a lot of those people, they're still nowhere near their residences.