[OT] Faithful fans getting fed up with mediocrity: Jets losing sales sizzle

[dino7c]

knew they were gonna get murdered in the west...can't believe many of the "experts" thought they would make a wildcard playoff spot

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by New Era

Bull####. These guys become billionaires because they recognize a losing proposition and dump it. If the Jets can remain self-sufficient he will do what he did to become a billionaire; find another sucker to buy them or move them to another city (hello Quebec City!).



Yeah, the Flames can seat an extra 4,000 people per game, and do, and they are the ones in dire need of a new building?? Get serious. The Jets' average ticket price is a whopping $276.69 per seat, and that's down 20% from last year. Average price for the Flames is 262.10, up 25% from the previous year. The difference in revenues, just in seat sales, is almost $43M a season. Who needs the new rink?

Yes I am dead serious the Flames and the city of Calgary need a new rink way worse than the Jets and Winnipeg do.
The Saddledome can't even get all of the high end concerts cause they cant even get the stage in the building.
TNSE has a complete business plan with all of the other revenues that they generate from owning the property/casino the eggs are not all on a hockey ticket sales.
What do the Flames have again? One of the older rinks in the league and they rent it too, with their customers paying somebody else to park at their events.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Yes I am dead serious the Flames and the city of Calgary need a new rink way worse than the Jets do.

They need a new rink, but not for the reasons you're supposing.

Calgary needs a new rink because theirs is outdated, and it generally affects the revenue streams outside of hockey.

Winnipeg needs a new rink because even if they sell out their current rink their attendance would rank in the bottom 10 teams of the league.

Higher need: Winnipeg
If the average ticket price for those 4500-6000 seats they are missing is say... $150 (assuming none of them would be lower bowl, etc) then Winnipeg is costing themselves approximately 675,000-900,000 in revenue EVERY GAME. That's generally over 30 MILLION dollars they aren't getting every year.

That's downright embarrassing. It's one thing if you have the space and the people don't come, it's another if you don't even have the space.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by strombad

They need a new rink, but not for the reasons you're supposing.

Calgary needs a new rink because theirs is outdated, and it generally affects the revenue streams outside of hockey.

Winnipeg needs a new rink because even if they sell out their current rink their attendance would rank in the bottom 10 teams of the league.

Higher need: Winnipeg
If the average ticket price for those 4500-6000 seats they are missing is say... $150 (assuming none of them would be lower bowl, etc) then Winnipeg is costing themselves approximately 675,000-900,000 in revenue EVERY GAME. That's generally over 30 MILLION dollars they aren't getting every year.

That's downright embarrassing. It's one thing if you have the space and the people don't come, it's another if you don't even have the space.

So just so I have this right... you chose to avoid the reasons that I stated that the city of Calgary needs a new rink more than the city of Winnipeg which was the context of my original post (an outdated rink and all the problems that come with it). Do we need to run the numbers the Flames are losing because of this outdated rink? How much are they losing any idea? parking, concession, rent...
But you are choosing instead to just focus on the hockey ticket end to justify your position.
Good work a nice level conversation

[strombad]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

So just so I have this right... does the city of Calgary need a new rink more than Winnipeg which is the original context of my post or not?

Not. Winnipeg needs it more. Pretty sure I said that quite clearly, but there you go.

You're also not factoring in the countless facilities that Calgary has to host a variety of events. Winnipeg is more dependant on the Jets than Calgary is on the Flames.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by strombad

Not. Winnipeg needs it more. Pretty sure I said that quite clearly, but there you go.

You're also not factoring in the countless facilities that Calgary has to host a variety of events. Winnipeg is more dependant on the Jets than Calgary is on the Flames.

Like which ones? Which event does Winnipeg not get that Calgary does due to facilities? Cause I can name quite a few Calgary doesn't because of theirs arena, ballpark, stadium situation.

yeah I am factoring it in, you are just making stuff up.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Yet the Jets are still making a ton of cash, have lengthy season ticket holder agreements in place, and a very long line up of people waiting to get a chance to buy season tickets.

I wouldn't say a ton of cash. I believe they are around the middle of the league in revenues (16th) and lowest for Canadian teams and it's never going to get better than it is now unless they raise ticket prices as there's nowhere to go but down from where they are now. If they ever get to the point where they play to below capacity attendance they will drop to the bottom 3rd for revenues. I don't think their situation will be dire but they really need to continue to sell out or they will become a have not team.

[SeeBass]

So is there something wrong with the smallest market in the NHL making middle of the pack revenue?

Why does Winnipeg need to be in the top 10 to be a viable team in some people's eyes?

This is their market, this is the size of rink they can fill, what the heck is the problem?

[Plett25]

IMO a newer/bigger rink would be a bad idea for Winnipeg. Supply vs. demand. 15,000 is almost perfect for Winnipeg. It might be smaller than every other NHL rink, but they actually sell it out, and can charge a premium for the good seats. If they build a new 18,000 seat arena, I think we'd end up seeing 3-4-5 thousand empty seats for every game

[strombad]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Like which ones? Which event does Winnipeg not get that Calgary does due to facilities? Cause I can name quite a few Calgary doesn't because of theirs arena, ballpark, stadium situation.

yeah I am factoring it in, you are just making stuff up.

How so?
Tell me, which events does Calgary not get that Winnipeg gets every time?

I can count a couple, Metallica, Justin Timberlake, that sort.
The problem with your logic is this: You aren't factoring in the other events which sell 4500 more tickets in Calgary than they do in the Peg.

Calgary makes about a million more (assuming 200 dollar ticket prices for the big events they DO get like Elton John, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, etc) than Winnipeg does for EVERY big event.

Nobody is making stuff up here, no need to get defensive. You're just arguing from a point of ignorance and not really considering all the things you need to be considering.

Does Calgary need a new arena to host the 3-4 events it misses per year? Yeah, they absolutely do. Does Winnipeg need a new arena to make up for the 500,000-1,000,000 dollars of revenue it DOESNT make on EVERY event that comes through there? Uh yeah, they REALLY do.

Again, no need to be defensive, you just need to to be factoring more than the latest Metallica tour.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by strombad

Higher need: Winnipeg
If the average ticket price for those 4500-6000 seats they are missing is say... $150 (assuming none of them would be lower bowl, etc) then Winnipeg is costing themselves approximately 675,000-900,000 in revenue EVERY GAME. That's generally over 30 MILLION dollars they aren't getting every year.

That's downright embarrassing. It's one thing if you have the space and the people don't come, it's another if you don't even have the space.

First off, they are at most "missing" 4500 seats, they do not need to be the second largest arena in the country.

And you're right to not assume that they're missing seats in the lower bowl because assuming they're missing seats anywhere other than the nose bleeds would be ridiculous. So find the cheapest seat prices and make them slightly cheaper. That's the seats they're missing. These seats also cost the most to build for bringing in the least amount of revenue, closer to $10M a year. When you consider the cost of a new arena ($150M+ more than what MTS cost) you're expecting those seats to pay off the additional construction cost alone after 15 years. Is it really worth it?

The smaller arena also proves helpful in the diversity of concerts that come through which is why the smallest arena in the smallest market in the league is able to have more non-sporting tickets sold than the likes of the Pepsi Center, Scottrade Center, TD Garden, Nationwide Arena, Xcel Energy Center and the Saddledome (in fact MTS has over 100,000 more tickets sold to non-sporting events than the 'Dome *2012 numbers*).


So no, Winnipeg does not need a new arena more than Calgary. If you want to talk about embarrassing you should look at the suite revenue of Canada's second largest corporate base and how much less non sporting event tickets the Dome sells compared to its Canadian counterparts (it's eighth).

[CaptainCrunch]

I stated that when the Jets moved back to Winnipeg that they were going to be on the razors edge in terms of being able to be self sufficient.

MTS center with 15,000 seats and 55 luxury boxes, compared to to Calgary for example with 4000 more seats and nearly 20 more luxury boxes, Winnipeg is going to be in trouble as the cap increases to stay competitive.

If their attendance slides below sellout levels it becomes a huge financial burden on the owner especially if the Canadian Dollar slides as its been doing so far.

The bonus for the Jets is the new T.V. deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point they require a NHL subsidy to survive.

Or they become a cap floor team and stay non competitive like the old days and fans completely lose interest again.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

Winnipeg fans don't have to worry about the Jets leaving for at least 10 years, when the league has expanded to 32 teams. And I don't think Phoenix is as much of a joke as you think it is pylon, I was down there a couple weeks ago and it was louder than the Saddledome

Yup, crowd noise sure helps pay the bills!

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

The smaller arena also proves helpful in the diversity of concerts that come through which is why the smallest arena in the smallest market in the league is able to have more non-sporting tickets sold than the likes of the Pepsi Center, Scottrade Center, TD Garden, Nationwide Arena, Xcel Energy Center and the Saddledome (in fact MTS has over 100,000 more tickets sold to non-sporting events than the 'Dome *2012 numbers*).

So your reasoning is because MTS is smaller, it can hold more events?
You.... are aware Calgary is flush with smaller venues, including MacEwan Hall and the Corral?

MTS being smaller gives Winnipeg no advantage over Calgary.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Plett25

IMO a newer/bigger rink would be a bad idea for Winnipeg. Supply vs. demand. 15,000 is almost perfect for Winnipeg. It might be smaller than every other NHL rink, but they actually sell it out, and can charge a premium for the good seats. If they build a new 18,000 seat arena, I think we'd end up seeing 3-4-5 thousand empty seats for every game

More suites would be ideal though. They could be a new arena, but it doesn't have to be 18,000 seating. ~16,000 with more suites then they have now could be good for them.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by strombad

So your reasoning is because MTS is smaller, it can hold more events?
You.... are aware Calgary is flush with smaller venues, including MacEwan Hall and the Corral?

MTS being smaller gives Winnipeg no advantage over Calgary.

How much revenue do the Flames get for events that are held at MacEwan Hall, Jubilee, Corral, etc.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by strombad

So your reasoning is because MTS is smaller, it can hold more events?
You.... are aware Calgary is flush with smaller venues, including MacEwan Hall and the Corral?

MTS being smaller gives Winnipeg no advantage over Calgary.

Calgary is flush with nothing. It has a 19,000 seat venue and a handful of sub 7,000 capacity venues ( with a big gap between Mac Hall and Jubilee and the Corral). It has nothing in between. Vancouver has the Coliseum, Toronto has the Amphitheater etc. Not that it matters because any event at a venue that isn't the Dome is money lost to the Flames.

What MTS Centre can offer is that acts which could outsell those smaller venues but don't (because the Dome is just too big and costs more) can still play a show with good atmosphere by getting 10,000 people.

Just compare the event schedules for the Dome and MTS. There are a lot of mid-sized acts that play in MTS that don't play in the Dome and all the big acts as well. This was an unintended advantage that became of MTS being the size that it is.

The over 100,000 extra tickets TNSE sells for non sporting events are all the evidence you should need.

[Vinny01]

I think the Jets could be a good trade partner. They are in need of a shakeup and have a fairly young team that is big in size.

[Locke]

NEWSFLASH:

WATER: STILL WET!!

MOUNT EVEREST: STILL TALL!!

We'll keep you updated on all the latest!!

[Knut]

I think the big issue in Winnipeg is the perception that nothing is changing. How much roster turnover has actually happened ?? No coaching changes or management changes.

I think the fans there just want to see that something is happening to try and right the ship.. even if that means rebuild.