Reto Berra vs. Karri Ramo

[Duke43]

How about sending Berra down to Abbotsford for a spell and bringing Johnny Ortio up to see where he fits in the mix

[OzSome]

Originally Posted by FAN

I agree with the small sample size, but I hate the philosophy of playing the two goalies and seeing how they evolve. Goaltenders are different from other positional players. Backup goalies are practically worthless in a trade. Average #1 goalies have little trade value. Unproven #1 goalies with top 15-top 20 upside have little trade value.

The reason you have management and scouts watching games is to know the team and identify things such as guys who can be core players and positions that needs upgrades. It's fine keeping Berra around and see how he evolves because he's cheap and under team control for another year. But Ramo? You can talk about sample size, but management's job is to figure out as soon as possible whether Ramo can be and will be capable of filling that #1 goaltender position. The worst thing for a rebuilding team is to spend years waiting for their potential #1 goalie to develop into one, passing up on opportunities to acquire a true #1 goalie, and setting back the rebuild for years.

I absolutely hated the fact that people are always worried about TRADES. I agree with Enoch Root to let them play both goaltenders and see what they can do. It is a rebuilding season so this is the best time to find how these two goalies plays. These guys are not 19, 20 or even 21 years old anymore. They are older and more mature goalies. Let's not worry about the Trade Value for now. If one of these guys or both of them turned out to be another Kipper or a good starting goalie then it will be awesome. If not, then at least we know. It buys us time to see Gilles develop in NCAA and maybe AHL or NHL.

[MissTeeks]

Pat Steinberg‏@Fan960Steinberg19m

Karri Ramo starts for the #Flames tomorrow.

[Enoch Root]

^ that is the correct and just decision, IMO.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Duke43

How about sending Berra down to Abbotsford for a spell and bringing Johnny Ortio up to see where he fits in the mix

I think there is no point in rushing Ortio up at this point.

He seems to be doing well so far in the AHL and it is so early in the season for all guys that I think moving them up and down isn't good for anyone Flames included.

I would actually prefer that they just keep Ortio down in the AHL and use next year to assess him at the NHL.

This year should be focused on figuring out what we have in Berra and Ramo at the NHL level and would prefer to see them roughly split the games left in the NHL season.

[tvp2003]

I think the key is to have both Ramo and Berra pushing each other to get better. They have all year to do it, so hopefully by the end of the year both are better, or at least one guy has distanced himself from the other.

[Wastedyouth]

Smug

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Not sure what your problem with Ramo is, but he will require a similar amount of time to assess as Berra will.

Is your argument that, because he makes $2.7m, he shouldn't get as much time?

That is a ridiculous argument. The Flames have several goalie prospects in various levels of development. It will take time to play out. None of the salaries are such that they materially change that.

At the same time, the organization is also free to evaluate whether or not to acquire another goalie.

Your arguments, and desire to treat Ramo differently, make no sense.

Not sure why it's hard to understand. Contract status matters. Berra can be treated differently because he's cheap and has another year under team control. That means that no matter how he plays this year, there's another year before the Flames really have to decide what to do with him. If he ####s the bed the team can release him. If he shows promise but deemed not ready to handle a large workload, he can be re-signed to a one-year contract and see if he will develop into a #1 goalie or at the very least he can serve as a decently priced backup. If he is clearly on an upwards trajectory but maybe not quite ready to handle #1 duties next season the Flames can look to sign him to a longer deal that pays him more in year 2 and maybe even year 3. There's a lot of flexibility here.

Ramo is in a completely different situation. He's signed for another year. If he proves himself to be a capable #1 goalie the Flames might be willing to simply go with him for another year or even more. But if he completely ####s the bed or clearly isn't #1 goalie material, the Flames might have problems, because they might not want to have him in the AHL or serve as a backup goaltender making $2.9M in actual dollars. So what can the Flames do if they feel they can't go with Ramo and Berra as a tandem another season? Ramo's contract makes him practically immovable.

Keep in mind that with Burke here, there's no guarantee that the Flames want to continue being well under the cap. It's possible that with Monahan's development, Burke sees an opportunity to compete for the playoffs as soon as next season. Burke also isn't the most patient with inadequate goaltending.

Originally Posted by Itse

I fail to see how the Flames are passing on opportunities in any way right now.

Also; "true #1" is often code for "franchise" when it comes to goaltenders and centers.

Looking at the recent championship goaltenders, good goaltending will do, great is not needed. Both Berra and Rämö could be good, although Rämö I agree is a bit of a stretch.

How do you know the Flames aren't passing on opportunities with a goalie signed for another year taking up a $2.75M cap hit?

Also, "true #1" isn't code for "franchise" when it comes to goaltenders anymore, because franchises rarely build their team around their goaltenders nowadays.

The quality of goaltending can completely change the fortunes of a team. Look at Craig Anderson's season to season performance and his team's performance. Look at Bobrovsky. You want a true gauge of how good of a team you have you need good goaltending.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by OzSome

I absolutely hated the fact that people are always worried about TRADES. I agree with Enoch Root to let them play both goaltenders and see what they can do. It is a rebuilding season so this is the best time to find how these two goalies plays. These guys are not 19, 20 or even 21 years old anymore. They are older and more mature goalies. Let's not worry about the Trade Value for now. If one of these guys or both of them turned out to be another Kipper or a good starting goalie then it will be awesome. If not, then at least we know. It buys us time to see Gilles develop in NCAA and maybe AHL or NHL.

My point was that it is management and their scouts' jobs to determine whether the ceilings of these goaltenders and the likelihood of them developing into good #1 goaltenders. If they don't think it's likely that they will develop into good #1s, I say get rid of Ramo (due to his contract status) ASAP and try to bring a guy in here who is capable of developing into a good #1 goalie. As much as some fans want this team to tank, the purpose isn't to tank. Also, just because it's a rebuilding year doesn't mean you waste development time. If the team thinks Berra has more upside play him. If you're looking for a stop gap then Ramo is a terrible choice. Should have signed a goalie to a one-year deal.

My point is that management and scouts should do their due diligence. if they don't think Ramo will amount to much then don't waste time on him. Don't take a wait and see approach. Get on the phones and see if there are upgrades available at a good price.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FAN

Ramo is in a completely different situation. He's signed for another year. If he proves himself to be a capable #1 goalie the Flames might be willing to simply go with him for another year or even more. But if he completely ####s the bed or clearly isn't #1 goalie material, the Flames might have problems, because they might not want to have him in the AHL or serve as a backup goaltender making $2.9M in actual dollars. So what can the Flames do if they feel they can't go with Ramo and Berra as a tandem another season? Ramo's contract makes him practically immovable.

Keep in mind that with Burke here, there's no guarantee that the Flames want to continue being well under the cap. It's possible that with Monahan's development, Burke sees an opportunity to compete for the playoffs as soon as next season. Burke also isn't the most patient with inadequate goaltending.

You keep attempting to argue that Ramo's contract is some massive albatross that will become a problem for the team. You seem to be pretty much alone in that view - it simply isn't.

1) it will take time to determine what Ramo is - likely this full season at least. If he fails, there is only one more year on the contract at $2.75m - not that big of a deal.

2) as has been pointed out to you more than once, if he fails and is not going to play for the Flames next year, it seems very likely that both he and the Flames would entertain the KHL. If that were the case, his cap hit would be gone.

It is not the big deal that you are trying to make it out to be.

Oh, and then there is the fact that he has been fantastic in the last two games - something that you also seem to have ignored.

[Stanley]

Fairly impressed with Ramo last couple games, although the team has played better in front of him too. Just his rebound control and puck handling could use some major improvement...

[btimbit]

Originally posted in last nights PGT but decided it was better suited here.

So much Berra hate in the GT thread even though he played a solid game. Incredible, but makes me happy that people won't be able to handle a rebuild and it will burn off the bandwagon.

Look at the stats.

W/L Pretty equal
Ramo 5-5
Berra 6-6

GA Pretty equal
Ramo 3.00
Berra 3.28

SV% Pretty equal
Ramo - .896%
Berra - .894%

Some say you should look past stats. OK. Ramo looked great in his 2 games this week, very composed. But also consider that the bulk of Berra's starts were when the team was playing like garbage and was without Gio. Tonight he looked great as well. Berra's also doing a LOT better than Ramo did in his first games in the NHL, in his time with the lightning I'm pretty sure he went 7-11 one season and 4-24 the next (although I'm not sure how many of those were starts.) but even his AHL record is bad. It takes time to learn NA ice, and I think Berra's doing it really well so far.

I'm not biased either way, I think alternating starts is the way to go until one emerges as a clear #1, and right now I see the potential in both.

To people who want to throw either one of these guys under the bus, why? It's a rebuild You want to throw all our eggs into one basket and just hope it works out? Because I'd rather take our time and do it properly, which is the same reason I want to see Ortio spend the whole season in the AHL.

Unfortunately we're going to lose a few bad games because we're trying new things. Easiest way to learn is to make mistakes, and it's not like they're not learning. Both have already improved their poor rebound control, and Berra's starting to look more composed every game.

You can't expect another Kipprusoff, most goalies aren't just going to fall into our laps and be great from the start.

/rant

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

I think a good chunk of the Berra hate is fueled by Hartley's preferential treatment of one goaltender over the other. Not Berra's fault obviously, but it makes people more critical.

[dammage79]

And Berra gets the start tomorrow. Fire Hartley? Anyone? Anyone?..

Alright. Berra had a solid outting against the Oilers and deserves the start IMO. And I think we will likely see from here on out, the win one get another start tactic. Both Ramo and Berra have appeared to be settling in now.

[cannon7]

Can we play Ramo and berra together? At the same time? Might be able to put together a complete game that way...

Giving up a goal with 11 seconds left, ugh...

[dino7c]

I think both have potential...pretty equal if you ask me both have their flaws that hopefully they can work out.

I do find it funny that 80% of CPers seem to rag on Berra when then have basically the exact same numbers

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I think a good chunk of the Berra hate is fueled by Hartley's preferential treatment of one goaltender over the other. Not Berra's fault obviously, but it makes people more critical.

It's no secret that Hartley loves players that have played in the Swiss league, and in Berra's case it's because Bob has seen how well he's performed there. But Berra only has 2 more starts than Ramo.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Can we play Ramo and berra together? At the same time? Might be able to put together a complete game that way...

Giving up a goal with 11 seconds left, ugh...

Ramo plays the first two periods; Berra plays the third and the inevitable OT/shootout.

Flames go undefeated the rest of the season. Hartley wins coach of the year

[krynski]

Originally Posted by Duke43

How about sending Berra down to Abbotsford for a spell and bringing Johnny Ortio up to see where he fits in the mix

I would love to see Ortio in the mix.

I don't want to rush him though. It would also be nice if he had a consistent team in front of him. I say give him a taste with a game or two in the last couple games of the season (if he is still doing well in abby, and games that don't really mean anything) and see if that pans out well. The last thing i'd like to do it hand him a couple of important game losses and destroy his progression.

[4oh3]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

Ramo plays the first two periods; Berra plays the third and the inevitable OT/shootout.



Flames go undefeated the rest of the season. Hartley wins coach of the year

Maybe one day nhl goalies will be like mlb pitchers you get a starter some relievers and a closer haha