Will Sven Bounce Back?

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Completely disagree. When developing a player that could be your scoring leader in the future you need to hold him accountable. Sven needs to know if he is not playing the right way there is a risk he will sit.

I think handling Sven the way you are suggesting will result in a culture similar to the one in Edmonton which is apparently a total country club

I agree you need to hold him accountable, but what Im saying is I dont agree with HOW Hartley is holding him accountable. I think its clear the "tough love" thing isn't working. Now obviously I dont know what goes on behind closed doors but if I were Hartley, instead of scratching him every couple games, I would sit down with him and show him tape of the game. Go over in-depth what things went right, and what went wrong, where he needs to be stronger, more aggressive, more assertive, and then plays where he did all the things right. Simply sending a young kid to the press box to figure it out is not effective, its a tactic you use on veterans to get them pissed on and motivated, not an effective way to TEACH a young kid.

So if Hartley continues this badgering style of "you sit until you get it" I hope they just send him to the AHL so he can get the ice and coaching to actually learn and develop.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

I agree you need to hold him accountable, but what Im saying is I dont agree with HOW Hartley is holding him accountable. I think its clear the "tough love" thing isn't working. Now obviously I dont know what goes on behind closed doors but if I were Hartley, instead of scratching him every couple games, I would sit down with him and show him tape of the game. Go over in-depth what things went right, and what went wrong, where he needs to be stronger, more aggressive, more assertive, and then plays where he did all the things right. Simply sending a young kid to the press box to figure it out is not effective, its a tactic you use on veterans to get them pissed on and motivated, not an effective way to TEACH a young kid.

So if Hartley continues this badgering style of "you sit until you get it" I hope they just send him to the AHL so he can get the ice and coaching to actually learn and develop.

Did Sven indicate that the coaching team is not doing video review with him? That would be pretty unusual and surprising.

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Did Sven indicate that the coaching team is not doing video review with him? That would be pretty unusual and surprising.

As I mentioned, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, just from my perspective and what (limited) knowledge we have, it seems counter productive to just sit him every couple games.

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

I agree you need to hold him accountable, but what Im saying is I dont agree with HOW Hartley is holding him accountable. I think its clear the "tough love" thing isn't working. Now obviously I dont know what goes on behind closed doors but if I were Hartley, instead of scratching him every couple games, I would sit down with him and show him tape of the game. Go over in-depth what things went right, and what went wrong, where he needs to be stronger, more aggressive, more assertive, and then plays where he did all the things right. Simply sending a young kid to the press box to figure it out is not effective, its a tactic you use on veterans to get them pissed on and motivated, not an effective way to TEACH a young kid.

So if Hartley continues this badgering style of "you sit until you get it" I hope they just send him to the AHL so he can get the ice and coaching to actually learn and develop.

I agree with this. The scratching is being overdone. You can over disciple/correct/scold what have you. It can get to the point where the player is going to start some other type of negative development like resentment etc. I tried to stay positive on Hartley because I think he has some good qualities but I'm beginning to wonder. The definition of insanity is repeating the same actions and expecting a different result.

[DeluxeMoustache]

So suppose Hartley has done video review with Sven, made clear what he is asking for, and Sven for some reason repeatedly fails to do it. He threatens him with the press box. What is he supposed to do? Make a bunch of guys on CP who have no idea what the hell is really going on happy, or be a man of his word?

Sven is a rookie and is not entitled to not do what the coaches ask.

In the absence of info behind the scenes I would assume the coaches know how to set expectations and which corrective actions to apply at what point.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

Can you please give examples of how Sven is not being held accountable during a game, or how he is not "playing the right way" above and beyond any other player?

What I am saying is Sven should not be treated the same as every other player. He is a key piece of the future and is hopefully being groomed to be a first line 2 way player. So often this season he has been knocked off the puck with ease trying to dangle his way past defenders where it seldom works if ever. He has been benched only 6 times all year so once every 6 games that is not crazy at all.

Burke challenged him at the start of the year and he has made some strides but still has a ton of holes in his game. The problem I see is when he is not generating offensively he is invisible and often on the ice who there is sustained pressure against.

I think Sven should probably go to the AHL and be the top winger on a top team rather than fight to get in the lineup on the big squad. He needs to get bigger and work on his defensive game. Personally I still have very high hopes for his ability to be a top line player in the future but he is not going to do it as quickly as many including myself hoped.

[edslunch]

What do the advanced stats say about his performance? Serious question

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What I am saying is Sven should not be treated the same as every other player. He is a key piece of the future and is hopefully being groomed to be a first line 2 way player. So often this season he has been knocked off the puck with ease trying to dangle his way past defenders where it seldom works if ever. He has been benched only 6 times all year so once every 6 games that is not crazy at all.

Burke challenged him at the start of the year and he has made some strides but still has a ton of holes in his game. The problem I see is when he is not generating offensively he is invisible and often on the ice who there is sustained pressure against.

I think Sven should probably go to the AHL and be the top winger on a top team rather than fight to get in the lineup on the big squad. He needs to get bigger and work on his defensive game. Personally I still have very high hopes for his ability to be a top line player in the future but he is not going to do it as quickly as many including myself hoped.

You have not answered my question. If you are going to use the logic that he should be held accountable, or is not playing the right way, can you please provide a few examples of this that are glaring enough to justify sitting him 6 times?

Can you expand on your idea that he should not be treated like any other player because he is a 'key' piece of the future? In what way should he not be treated the same as other players? Do you think sitting him in the NHL is better for the development of a key piece than sending him to play in the NHL?

Being "knocked off the puck" is not a reason to sit a player. Sven is not Lance Bouma and neither is he 6'3 and 200lbs. He will get bodied off the puck until he has played enough to learn the NHL game. I don't see anyone here, or Hartley trying to get Bouma to dangle around defenders, so why is there this expectation for Sven to play like he's a hard nosed grinder. Every team has players who fill that role, and players who are finesse player. Just like they have a player who is shut down D man, or one who is a PK specialist, or someone who specializes in killing penalties. The defensive part of the game takes years to sink in to most players. My point is, you need to let players do what they are good at. I'm not saying to hang around the red line looking for breakaway passes all game. I have watched Sven in every game he's played and yes he makes mistakes but that's kind of how you learn. Scratching him once, twice sounds reasonable. But to constantly make him sit is detrimental to his development and will create resentment when he is the only one being singled out.

People in here seem to think that the coach can never make mistakes and there must be a reason why Sven is being treated this way. Coaches are human, and they make mistakes. Sven is a human and this kind of weird and illogical treatment is going to get to him in a negative way eventually. It would to anyone.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

People in here seem to think that the coach can never make mistakes and there must be a reason why Sven is being treated this way. Coaches are human, and they make mistakes. Sven is a human and this kind of weird and illogical treatment is going to get to him in a negative way eventually. It would to anyone.

Weird and illogical?

By trying to teach and motivate one of the very few players on the current Flames who has a nominal chance to be a top 2nd line player in 4 or 5 years, when the Flames may have a chance to contend?

Sven does not need a participation ribbon and a bowl of ice cream.

He needs to learn how to compete at a high level.

[Vinny01]

Weird illogical treatment? Let's just give all our young players free reign to only play only to their strengths and not develop them as complete players. Well then we are going to be Edmonton before you know it.

I think Sven should be playing big minutes with the Heat because i have also watched every game he has played and find myself unimpressed with his play more often than not. I am not convinced he is physically or emotionally mature enough to be a NHL regular quite yet

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by timbit

Weird and illogical?

By trying to teach and motivate one of the very few players on the current Flames who has a nominal chance to be a top 2nd line player in 4 or 5 years, when the Flames may have a chance to contend?

Sven does not need a participation ribbon and a bowl of ice cream.

He needs to learn how to compete at a high level.

I never said give him a ribbon or ice cream.

It's fun to throw around vague generalization, but what do you mean by "he needs to learn how to compete at a high level" and is he the ONLY player on the team who needs to do this?

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Weird illogical treatment? Let's just give all our young players free reign to only play only to their strengths and not develop them as complete players. Well then we are going to be Edmonton before you know it.

I think Sven should be playing big minutes with the Heat because i have also watched every game he has played and find myself unimpressed with his play more often than not. I am not convinced he is physically or emotionally mature enough to be a NHL regular quite yet

It's ironic, but the bolded part is exactly what the coach is doing with all the young players except one. And that never ends well.

I agree with your second paragraph. Which is why he should be with the Heat.

PS-You still didn't answer my question from the last two posts

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

It's ironic, but the bolded part is exactly what the coach is doing with all the young players except one. And that never ends well.

I agree with your second paragraph. Which is why he should be with the Heat.

PS-You still didn't answer my question from the last two posts

You must have mis-read my initial post. I was saying you have to hold him accountable (which i think Hartley has). I made that statement to another poster who was worried sitting Sven was wrong for his development. I think just letting him play and not holding him accountable is a mistake (not one the flames are making)

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

You must have mis-read my initial post. I was saying you have to hold him accountable (which i think Hartley has). I made that statement to another poster who was worried sitting Sven was wrong for his development. I think just letting him play and not holding him accountable is a mistake (not one the flames are making)

No I get what you're saying, but I'm asking you what, in your opinion, makes you think Sven is not being held accountable without being scratched and what exactly is he doing that he needs to be held accountable for?
You don't have to be scratched to be held accountable. Look at Colborne...he plays well, he gets more ice time, he plays bad and his ice time is cut a bit. What is Sven doing, or not doing that is so bad that scratching him 6 times is the answer to hold him accountable? To me, this makes no sense.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

No I get what you're saying, but I'm asking you what, in your opinion, makes you think Sven is not being held accountable without being scratched and what exactly is he doing that he needs to be held accountable for?
You don't have to be scratched to be held accountable. Look at Colborne...he plays well, he gets more ice time, he plays bad and his ice time is cut a bit. What is Sven doing, or not doing that is so bad that scratching him 6 times is the answer to hold him accountable? To me, this makes no sense.

I feel Sven is invisible in many games and outside of pockets of inspired play looks like he doesn't belong in a top 6 role. I think Sven has a much longer way to go to get where the Flames want him compared to Colborne. I believe the Flames see Joe as a #3C and see Sven as a 1-2 LW. Going strictly off reading articles it sounds like Colborne is working extremely hard off thenice and you don't read the same in regards to Sven.

I just disagree with the notion that Hartley is out to get Sven and that it is personal.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I feel Sven is invisible in many games and outside of pockets of inspired play looks like he doesn't belong in a top 6 role. I think Sven has a much longer way to go to get where the Flames want him compared to Colborne. I believe the Flames see Joe as a #3C and see Sven as a 1-2 LW. Going strictly off reading articles it sounds like Colborne is working extremely hard off thenice and you don't read the same in regards to Sven.

I just disagree with the notion that Hartley is out to get Sven and that it is personal.

Ok, so for you if Sven is not playing like an impact player then he should be sitting. I appreciated the explanation. I don't disagree about Sven being a 1-2 guy in the future. What I disagree about is how he will get there. I don't think this is the way to get him there.

I don't think Hartley is out to get Sven per se, and I don't buy everything Hartley says. I think the truth is in between somewhere.

[Vinny01]

I think that is why we agree he should be on the heat. He should be playing big minutes right now. I don't think he should play if he is going to be on the 4th line.

The only reason I find myself defending Hartley is I find some of te hate to be pretty off base and suggesting he is a terrible coach for benching a struggling rookie is overlooking the good he has do Edie this team which I think outweighs the bad this year

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Completely disagree. When developing a player that could be your scoring leader in the future you need to hold him accountable. Sven needs to know if he is not playing the right way there is a risk he will sit.

I think handling Sven the way you are suggesting will result in a culture similar to the one in Edmonton which is apparently a total country club

Lol soUnds more like training a dog then a hockey player

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

No I get what you're saying, but I'm asking you what, in your opinion, makes you think Sven is not being held accountable without being scratched and what exactly is he doing that he needs to be held accountable for?
You don't have to be scratched to be held accountable. Look at Colborne...he plays well, he gets more ice time, he plays bad and his ice time is cut a bit. What is Sven doing, or not doing that is so bad that scratching him 6 times is the answer to hold him accountable? To me, this makes no sense.

Not sure if this is the answer an you looking for. Not saying I agree with Hartleys approach, but I get the impression Sven is holding back and I think Hartley is convinced Sven has another gear. He is trying to get Sven pissed off with a chip on his shoulder. I don't think it has too much to do with his 3 zone play as it has to do with getting him to play harder.

Hartley has been giving the same sort of treatment to Backlund and Ramo but to different degree's. We kind of saw Backlund last game he played as if he was completely focused and maybe a little bit pissed off. Same with Ramo he was completely focused and unfazed, and played as if there was no way LA was going to get any pucks passed him. I think Hartley is just pushing buttons including Sven's. I think if Hartley didn't want Sven here he would have sent him down to the farm a long time ago. I am not saying I agree with Hartley's approach but just trying to add another observation.

I don't know if anyone has noticed this but Sven sometimes he goes out does his job and is often the first guy back to the bench. But on the other hand if you look at the play Byron made; He gets on the ice see's Scrivens fall races down the ice full speed, gets pushed down makes a second effort to pass the puck to Jones who scores. Hartley probably wants that kind of effort from Sven, an actual difference maker but on another level.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Not sure if this is the answer an you looking for. Not saying I agree with Hartleys approach, but I get the impression Sven is holding back and I think Hartley is convinced Sven has another gear. He is trying to get Sven pissed off with a chip on his shoulder. I don't think it has too much to do with his 3 zone play as it has to do with getting him to play harder.

Hartley has been giving the same sort of treatment to Backlund and Ramo but to different degree's. We kind of saw Backlund last game he played as if he was completely focused and maybe a little bit pissed off. Same with Ramo he was completely focused and unfazed, and played as if there was no way LA was going to get any pucks passed him. I think Hartley is just pushing buttons including Sven's. I think if Hartley didn't want Sven here he would have sent him down to the farm a long time ago. I am not saying I agree with Hartley's approach but just trying to add another observation.

I don't know if anyone has noticed this but Sven sometimes he goes out does his job and is often the first guy back to the bench. But on the other hand if you look at the play Byron made; He gets on the ice see's Scrivens fall races down the ice full speed, gets pushed down makes a second effort to pass the puck to Jones who scores. Hartley probably wants that kind of effort from Sven, an actual difference maker but on another level.

But this is a matter of opinion because when I watch Sven play, it seems to me like he is playing as hard as he can. The problem is when you play hard and all out it makes it harder to play smarter. Playing all out is what 4th liners do. Top 6 forwards...yes they play hard, but they play smart too. Too often Sven is too tired from showing that he can hustle to make use of chances that do come to him. That is just my observation. I'm not saying I support any one extreme on this issue. But Sven hasn't shown that he does not pay hard, and he has also not shown that he is a top 6 player right now. And if he is as important as people here make him out to be then he should be with the Heat, or playing enough minutes here to be progressing. At least that way it is clear which way his development is moving.