Will Sven Bounce Back?

[Ashasx]

The Flames didn't develop Colborne or Monahan. One has been with the team for less than half a year, the other a couple months.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Flames didn't develop Colborne or Monahan. One has been with the team for less than half a year, the other a couple months.

You don't think they're being developed while they play in the NHL? They are just improving by natural of their own being?

If players aren't developed in the NHL, then I suppose the Flames did a GREAT job with Sven. He sure looked great in the AHL when the Flames were developing him.

Developing starts from the moment a prospect is acquired by a franchise, through trade or draft. Don't be obtuse.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by strombad

You don't think they're being developed while they play in the NHL? They are just improving by natural of their own being?

If players aren't developed in the NHL, then I suppose the Flames did a GREAT job with Sven. He sure looked great in the AHL when the Flames were developing him.

Developing starts from the moment a prospect is acquired by a franchise, through trade or draft. Don't be obtuse.

I'm not saying the Flames aren't "developing" Monahan or Colborne, but how could you argue that the reason they're having success is because of the Flames? It's not.

Monahan played at a point per game through the first 10 games and has seen this pace fall since then. Obviously this is common for rookies, but the Flames aren't the reason why he had 6 goals in his first 9 games.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not saying the Flames aren't "developing" Monahan or Colborne, but how could you argue that the reason they're having success is because of the Flames? It's not.

Monahan played at a point per game through the first 10 games and has seen this pace fall since then. Obviously this is common for rookies, but the Flames aren't the reason why he had 6 goals in his first 9 games.

Of course not, and I'm not arguing that the Flames turn every rookie into solid gold, I'm arguing that they don't ruin the development of players.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by strombad

Of course not, and I'm not arguing that the Flames turn every rookie into solid gold, I'm arguing that they don't ruin the development of players.

And I'm saying you can't conclude anything based on half of the players you listed.

Monahan isn't proof of anything right now.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

And I'm saying you can't conclude anything based on half of the players you listed.

Monahan isn't proof of anything right now.

So you agree that after recently changing the way they develop players, saying something like "the Flames ruin prospects" is a bit ridiculous being that you can't make an educated opinion after such a short time?

Glad we agree, great chat as always.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by strombad

So you agree that after recently changing the way they develop players, saying something like "the Flames ruin prospects" is a bit ridiculous being that you can't make an educated opinion after such a short time?

Glad we agree, great chat as always.

It's hard to have a coherent conversation on this forum when previously banned posters like yourself keep putting words in others' mouths.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by strombad

Brodie, Bouma, Blair Jones has been good during his stint, Monahan has been great, Colborne has been steadily improving, Berra has been given plenty of leash.

You're cherry picking to make a point. Baertschi has struggled and Backlund hasn't been able to put up much offence. Development isn't just about how your two mid-range 1st rounders do, it's about everyone. Nor is this "leash" idea even remotely applicable. You can just give them infinite room to make mistakes without threat of repercussion. That's a way to ruin a prospect.

what's confusing is that Baertschi seems to be getting significantly different treatment that the others you mention without seeming to be performing significantly worse. He seems to be getting tougher love that on the surface doesn't seem warranted.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

It's hard to have a coherent conversation on this forum when previously banned posters like yourself keep putting words in others' mouths.

Nobody is trying to have a conversation with you. If anybody were, it would probably start with "Who here thinks Hartley is bad and Sven is our saviour?" At that point, it's fairly expected you would jump in waving your arms with glee. Otherwise, feel free not to interject yourself into conversations with posters you do not like, as you will not enjoy the result. Though I do find it funny you've once again brought up the previous poster remark. Try not to be SO blatant in your attempt at trolling other posters, I don't believe mods look kindly on it.

Originally Posted by edslunch

what's confusing is that Baertschi seems to be getting significantly different treatment that the others you mention without seeming to be performing significantly worse. He seems to be getting tougher love that on the surface doesn't seem warranted.

I agree, I do find it strange he seems to be getting different treatment. If I had to guess though, and I think Friedman said something similar on 960 this morning, is that Baertschi has a lot of hopes riding on him. He needs to be held to a higher standard than almost all of those guys. He's young, a high pick, and has a ton of upside. A tough love approach is probably the best thing for him. Though to be honest, I'm perfectly happy with the idea of him going to the Heat for a stretch.

[SuperMatt18]

Personally I already think we have seen growth from Sven this season. There was a stretch of games there where he was playing really well in all three zones, and showed improved strength on the forecheck.

Sven has played in 22/26 games (sits once every 6 games) while averaging 14:26 per game. That is not that bad for a young player in his first full NHL season.

Sitting Sven down for a game doesn't mean he is being ruined. It just means he is a young player working on evolving his game and I think we have already seen some benefits from his play.

As for Sven getting treated differently it does appear to be that way but as others mentioned I think the expectations are higher on him, as they try to build him in to a cornerstone for this franchise. Also sitting Sven is easier in comparison to Colborne, or Brodie becuase of our depth at LW, Bouma has also sat in the press box frequently so I don't think it is any different for him.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by edslunch

what's confusing is that Baertschi seems to be getting significantly different treatment that the others you mention without seeming to be performing significantly worse. He seems to be getting tougher love that on the surface doesn't seem warranted.

On the surface is the key. Different tonic for what ales ya. Each of those players are all in a different part of their development, have had different amounts of experience and likely have different development opportunities. Different development needs = different treatment paths.

Also, there was enough smoke around Sven's attitude during the pre season and prospect camp that might give some indications as to the type of issues they are looking to correct with "tough love".

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by strombad

Nobody is trying to have a conversation with you. If anybody were, it would probably start with "Who here thinks Hartley is bad and Sven is our saviour?" At that point, it's fairly expected you would jump in waving your arms with glee. Otherwise, feel free not to interject yourself into conversations with posters you do not like, as you will not enjoy the result. Though I do find it funny you've once again brought up the previous poster remark. Try not to be SO blatant in your attempt at trolling other posters, I don't believe mods look kindly on it.

You're the one who ignored everything I posted when you realized your argument was flawed. You're the one who brought up the personal remarks, I was simply responding to your incoherence to inform you why I would no longer take place in this discussion.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by strombad

Brodie, Bouma, Blair Jones has been good during his stint, Monahan has been great, Colborne has been steadily improving, Berra has been given plenty of leash.

You're cherry picking to make a point. Baertschi has struggled and Backlund hasn't been able to put up much offence. Development isn't just about how your two mid-range 1st rounders do, it's about everyone. Nor is this "leash" idea even remotely applicable. You can just give them infinite room to make mistakes without threat of repercussion. That's a way to ruin a prospect.

i sort of agree with the ashax in that monahan, colborne's success has a lot to do with their development prior to joining the organization, though you're correct that some credit could be layed on the flames coaching staff for providing the opportunity. Berra almost seems like the long leash is exactly how he shouldn't have been handled, as his play, his cheating just seems to be getting worse and worse. Ramo should have started 2 or 3 games ago, if not more.

it's great to see the flames develop some 4th liners in jones and bouma, but the success of this organization is going to be based on how well the organic high skill picks like baertchi's/backlunds are able to grow and develop while with the flames.

I'm not crapping on the current administration's development, i realize it's a new system top to bottom (for the most part) and it takes time, but i think it is imperative they get baertchi/backlund's path figured out asap and put them in a position where they are growing game in and game out.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

You're the one who ignored everything I posted when you realized your argument was flawed. You're the one who brought up the personal remarks, I was simply responding to your incoherence to inform you why I would no longer take place in this discussion.

Great, continue to post in this conversation about how you're not going to post in this conversation. Are we done? Back to the topic? Excellent.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

i realize it's a new system top to bottom (for the most part) and it takes time, but i think it is imperative they get baertchi/backlund's path figured out asap and put them in a position where they are growing game in and game out.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees with that statement. It's hard to pass judgement on the current administration, but the development of our high end prospects (namely Baertschi at the moment) is going to have a lot to do with how this phase of the Flames has seen. Baertschi cannot be a miss, so figuring out his trajectory as soon as possible is imperative.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

And I'm saying you can't conclude anything based on half of the players you listed.

Monahan isn't proof of anything right now.

Monahan and Colborne are proof (especially Monahan) that at the very least this coaching staff has correctly identified what is best for both of those players and how to use both of those players to best "enhance" their development at this point in time.

- Monahan is exceeding expectations - at the very least that means the team has correctly positioned and moved him along. Part of development

- Colborne is slowly moving towards being a legitimate NHL forward. Something he wasn't doing in other organizations. Again, showing that this staff has correctly assesed his needs "in this moment" - part of development.

Where I agree with you is neither are examples of the Flames overall or long term abilities to develop players. Much more time required for that, much larger sample size required as well. But they are great cases to point to the fact that these coaches can properly identify needs and strategies to develop for at least some of the young talent on this team.

[H2SO4(aq)]

The issue with Sven, is that he doesnt seem like the type of player you bench, and then see him come back with something to prove. I'm sure we all wish he was that guy, but some people arent built that way. He seems to me like a guy that if you positively encourage, give him ice with top players and keep pumping his tires, he is gonna get hot, turn it on and get that swagger he needs to be a top 6 producing player.

The problem with Hartley is he refuses to recognize this. All good coaches know they can't coach two players the same way. If someone like Cammilleri was floating and being complacent, perhaps sitting him would light the fire that the coach wants, but for Sven I dont think that same 'punishment' will produce the same result.

That is why Hartley is a bad coach for the rebuild, because he is too stubborn to acknowledge not everyone responds positively to his old school manner of 'teaching'.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

The issue with Sven, is that he doesnt seem like the type of player you bench, and then see him come back with something to prove. I'm sure we all wish he was that guy, but some people arent built that way. He seems to me like a guy that if you positively encourage, give him ice with top players and keep pumping his tires, he is gonna get hot, turn it on and get that swagger he needs to be a top 6 producing player.

The problem with Hartley is he refuses to recognize this. All good coaches know they can't coach two players the same way. If someone like Cammilleri was floating and being complacent, perhaps sitting him would light the fire that the coach wants, but for Sven I dont think that same 'punishment' will produce the same result.

That is why Hartley is a bad coach for the rebuild, because he is too stubborn to acknowledge not everyone responds positively to his old school manner of 'teaching'.

Completely disagree. When developing a player that could be your scoring leader in the future you need to hold him accountable. Sven needs to know if he is not playing the right way there is a risk he will sit.

I think handling Sven the way you are suggesting will result in a culture similar to the one in Edmonton which is apparently a total country club

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

The issue with Sven, is that he doesnt seem like the type of player you bench, and then see him come back with something to prove. I'm sure we all wish he was that guy, but some people arent built that way. He seems to me like a guy that if you positively encourage, give him ice with top players and keep pumping his tires, he is gonna get hot, turn it on and get that swagger he needs to be a top 6 producing player.

The problem with Hartley is he refuses to recognize this. All good coaches know they can't coach two players the same way. If someone like Cammilleri was floating and being complacent, perhaps sitting him would light the fire that the coach wants, but for Sven I dont think that same 'punishment' will produce the same result.

That is why Hartley is a bad coach for the rebuild, because he is too stubborn to acknowledge not everyone responds positively to his old school manner of 'teaching'.

This. I am amazed at how many people argue that he did well with this player or that player so therefore he is a good coach and all of his decisions must be correct.

Handling one player well doesn't make him a good coach any more than handling another player poorly makes him a bad coach.

No one is going to handle every player well or properly, it just isn't reasonable to expect them to.

So I think it is just as reasonable to criticize the coach if you think he is handling a player improperly as it is reasonable to praise a job well done with another player.

Though some people seem to disagree, it seems to me that a coach can be doing a good job on some fronts and not as good of a job on others. But then again, there is little room or tolerance for balanced views on message boards.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Completely disagree. When developing a player that could be your scoring leader in the future you need to hold him accountable. Sven needs to know if he is not playing the right way there is a risk he will sit.

I think handling Sven the way you are suggesting will result in a culture similar to the one in Edmonton which is apparently a total country club

Can you please give examples of how Sven is not being held accountable during a game, or how he is not "playing the right way" above and beyond any other player?