[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

...Maybe Baertschi needs to be Canadian for Hartley to like him.

Not likely. He has a man crush on his Swiss goaltender.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think that this is really key here. Regardless of what you think about Hartley; ether you think he is a good coach or not, what should be obvious to everyone is that he needs to be firm with his decisions and in his interactions with players.

It is silly to think that this somehow has the potential to permanently damage Baertschi. For gods sake, he's an elite level professional hockey player! I'm quite certain that he has encountered his fair share of hard-ass coaches in his time; a handful of healthy scratches in his rookie / sophomore season are not suddenly going to throw him off the rails and turn him into a quivering puddle of mush. Some of you people are ridiculous.

Maybe it doesn't damage Baertschi as a hockey player but if it damages Baertschi as a Calgary Flame then screw Hartley. He'll be gone in a year or two while Baertschi will likely be here long term but not with the way he's being treated.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Not likely. He has a man crush on his Swiss goaltender.

Well it's not like the other two goalies have made it any kind of race.

[Bane]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

He's missing the point? What point? To be more like Jackman?

Sometimes the coach is wrong. We've seen a long history of coaches being wrong in Calgary. They are not infallible.

Hartley wanted to win, so he believed he coach achieve that by scratching Backlund/Baertschi. He was wrong. He is wrong.

I want Backlund to be Backlund and I want Baertschi to be Baertschi. They are nobody else and should not be held to different standards.

Hartley hasn't specified the exact issue(s). Nor should he. Just because the fans can't see the reason, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As Textcritic said, the coaches are the experts and have far more experience and knowledge in these matters than all of us fans collectively. Let them do their job.

Backlund will always be Backlund, and Baertschi will always be Baertschi, but they are still learning and growing and can certainly be guided into being more complete and well rounded players.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I thought this was all about last game, kind of shocked it's about tonight's game as well.

I sure hope Hartley knows what he's doing. Glencross being hurt looked like the perfect opportunity for Sven to slot back in. Not sure what to say.

It could be a case of escalating the punishment from not obeying the first time. Don't listen once, one game scratch. Don't listen again, two game scratch. Maybe after the third, he goes to the Heat.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Not likely. He has a man crush on his Swiss goaltender.

Well, you can bet Hartley played a big role in trading for him, so kinda like Colborne with Burke, and Butler with Feaster...

[Enoch Root]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComixZone
Does benching Sven help the Calgary Flames today? Yes
Does benching Sven help the Calgary Flames tomorrow? Yes
Does benching Sven help Sven Baertschi today? Yes
Does benching Sven help Sven Baertschi tomorrow? Yes

Originally Posted by troutman

fyp

Being wrong is one thing.

"Correcting" someone, and being just as wrong is worse, IMO.

The answer to all of those questions is complete uncertainty (though for questions 1 and 3, with both Glencross and Stempniak out, I would think that the answer is closer to 'no' than 'yes')

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You're right. There may be one or two. I let my sense of hyperbole get the best of me, but my point still stands.

More than that.

I think it was MattyC (as an example) whose father played for Keenan.

He told the story about how Keenan didn't even acknowledge him for 3 years. While that might not say anything about Hartley, it does say something about what the acceptable level of feedback is for some NHL coaches.

For the most part, these guys have never taken an HR or communications course and it would probably offend most reasonable people what exactly would be considered "feedback".

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Why would you think different?

If a 53 year old coach is quarreling with a 21 year old rookie (assuming that that there is an issue in the first place), who is really the problem? Who's really being more childish? There's a potential language barrier and all that.

Likely the player. The 53 year old likely has a better grasp on things then the 21 year old does. I remeber what I used to think I knew at the age of 21. Looking back on my life, I can see lots of spots where I was wrong and the wiser older folks trying to help me out were right. But often you only learn those things through experience and hard knocks, like what Sven is going through now.

It's also not Hartley who's doing this, clearly he has management behind him supporting the decisions. Which is where the stupidity of all the concern comes in.

In order to believe that Sven is being miss treated, you have to believe that Sven knows better than all of these people: Hartley, Gelina, Cloutier, Feaster, Conroy, Wisebroad and Burke.

This where the story falls a part. Along with the fact that other rookies keep getting ice time. It's not impossible that Sven is getting the bums rush cause Hartley hates young people, hates europeans, or isn't on board with a rebuild....................but at this point, it's far more likely that Sven is being taught lessons and going through the groing pains of a young NHL career and the coaches and management are giving him the tough love that goes along with that.

Also, Hartley, Feaster, Burke and anyone else you want to add to that list that works for the Flames.........................have nothing to do with what any other Flames coaching staff or management team has done in the past.......so stop bringing that into the discussion likes it remotely relevant.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by heep223

At the same time taking the attitude of "well they must know what they're doing" has been proven to be disastrous time and time again, not just in sports but in human history.

I don't condone an apathetic approach, but certainly a more rational one than the likes of what we have seen from Ashasx and his ilk.

Hartley may be making a mistake, but I honestly couldn't know one way or the other based on the information at hand. This is sort of my point: it is foolish and shortsighted to conclude that this is an idiotic roster decision because it is not the same decision I would make. By the same token, while I don't understand what is going on, and I am concerned that the coaching staff makes the right decisions, I can't pretend to know more than they do bout what those decisions are.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Bane

Hartley hasn't specified the exact issue(s). Nor should he. Just because the fans can't see the reason, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As Textcritic said, the coaches are the experts and have far more experience and knowledge in these matters than all of us fans collectively. Let them do their job.

Backlund will always be Backlund, and Baertschi will always be Baertschi, but they are still learning and growing and can certainly be guided into being more complete and well rounded players.

Screw the experts. This isn't the NHL. This is a message board. If you don't like debating then don't participate. Saying the coaches know more than message board posters is useless. Of course they should know better but what fun would this board be if we all just laced up the army boots and followed and agreed with everything Hartley or the Calgary Flames do?

[Righteous1]

You don't see Monahan being scratched. Sven needs to simplify his game..and give it his all day in and out. This isn't the WHL anymore where he can turn it on and off whenever he felt like. Hopefully Sven takes this opportunity to learn and adapt.

[Enoch Root]

Accepting the argument that sitting is good for him (and there is no question that it can be and that there are times that it is appropriate), that was the argument last game. Now we have an injury that creates an opportunity. Ok Sven, this is why you sat, now go show us what you've learned.

But they didn't do that. The opportunity arose, and they benched him again, putting Jackman in his spot. That is a mistake to not only his management, but to the whole team.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Righteous1

You don't see Monahan being scratched. Sven needs to simplify his game..and give it his all day in and out. This isn't the WHL anymore where he can turn it on and off whenever he felt like. Hopefully Sven takes this opportunity to learn and adapt.

Monahan and Baertschi play completely different games. Monahan can't do half of the things Baertschi does with the puck.

Baertschi's game is skill and intelligence. Monahan's game is more straight-line and simple. They shouldn't be expected to play the same game,

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Maybe it doesn't damage Baertschi as a hockey player but if it damages Baertschi as a Calgary Flame then screw Hartley. He'll be gone in a year or two while Baertschi will likely be here long term but not with the way he's being treated.

I don't believe this, nor do I believe there is good reason to believe this. Quite simply, without a completely clear picture of all sides of this issue, we have no idea whether Baertschi is being treated fairly or not. I suspect that he is, though.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Accepting the argument that sitting is good for him (and there is no question that it can be and that there are times that it is appropriate), that was the argument last game. Now we have an injury that creates an opportunity. Ok Sven, this is why you sat, now go show us what you've learned.

But they didn't do that. The opportunity arose, and they benched him again, putting Jackman in his spot. That is a mistake to not only his management, but to the whole team.

Well, that and the fact that coach/management see's sitting as more of an opportunity to improve (which really puzzles me).... whereas, in my unprofessional opinion, more could probably be learned from playing and getting feed back shift to shift..... rather then sitting in a press box and watching the team get blown out 5-1. But hell what do I know.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't believe this, nor do I believe there is good reason to believe this. Quite simply, without a completely clear picture of all sides of this issue, we have no idea whether Baertschi is being treated fairly or not. I suspect that he is, though.

Well all that matters is whether Baertschi thinks he is or not.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Accepting the argument that sitting is good for him (and there is no question that it can be and that there are times that it is appropriate), that was the argument last game. Now we have an injury that creates an opportunity. Ok Sven, this is why you sat, now go show us what you've learned.

But they didn't do that. The opportunity arose, and they benched him again, putting Jackman in his spot. That is a mistake to not only his management, but to the whole team.

As mentioned by one or two already, perhaps the coaches are seeing something during practice that they don't like? Whatever the reason, I'm not ready to believe that this is the product of some vindictiveness or incompetence without a whole lot more evidence.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If a coach is feuding with a rookie, in my opinion, the will coach always be in the wrong.

Serious??

Eakins vs Yakupov

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Accepting the argument that sitting is good for him (and there is no question that it can be and that there are times that it is appropriate), that was the argument last game. Now we have an injury that creates an opportunity. Ok Sven, this is why you sat, now go show us what you've learned.

But they didn't do that. The opportunity arose, and they benched him again, putting Jackman in his spot. That is a mistake to not only his management, but to the whole team.

I can see the logic you are implying for sure. I also won't pretend to know why he's sitting. But I'll give you the following example, to illustrate why what you say above isn't necissarily true.

It all depends on WHY he's sitting. If for example, an attitude issue as to why Hartley sat him.............putting him back in after the Flames got pounded might not send the right message to Sven. If Sven does have an attitude issue (not saying he does) maybe he's now sitting there, having learnt nothing figuring all that got proved is the Flames are worse without him (which is true).

If the above is the case, I could actually see Sven sitting until they win with out him to create the right message for Sven.

Again, I'm not even hypothesizing the above, just illustrating one example of how sitting him again might make sense. The fact is, there are so many reasons Sven could be sitting, and unless we know why, we can't actually say if it makes sense to sit him again.

If the Flames continue to lose, and this drags on and on, I'd say it might make sense to ask what they are doing with Sven, but as of right now, it's still just the 2nd game in a row, and the 3rd overall in 15 games he hasn't played, not exactly a pattern yet.