[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Do you actually think that Millions and Francis get told by the coach what's going on? Also, not to harp on it, but I can see how you'd suggest maybe RM might have some insight, he travels with the team, he's not a total sensationalist.

But exactly what do you think Francis would know? Likely knows less than the average poster on this site about a situation like this.

Uhh, they're closer to the situation. Steinberg, Millions (who literally travels with the team), and Francis don't understand the situation.

Millions and Francis in the past have usually been the ones supporting the coach. Don't you think it's odd that they are confused by Hartley's actions?

Would be nice to see the media actually ask Hartley the tough questions though.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Getting players to play a complete game will make the Flames play more like a team like Chicago, instead of the team the Flames have been since 06, where they always had more talent on paper than their actual results. If that means that players have to be benched like Sven, or even eventually traded if they don't learn, that is 100% fine by me. We can build a contender, but we need players that are willing to do all that it takes for that to happen.

Not every player on Chicago plays a complete game. Most of them don't.

Sorry, but Baertschi is not Jonathan Toews and never will be. I'm sure Sven is sorry as well.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

That's not coddling a player. That's just doing what every other team, sans oilers, does. Some players need a longer leash to achieve their potential. For all we know, they could be stunting his growth. No way to be sure one way or another.

I just think that too many posters are seeing a stick here instead of a carrot. By all accounts Sven is getting lots of extra attention from the coaching staff. Without hearing exactly how these conversations and video sessions play out it's impossible to say whether they're deeply unhappy with Baertschi, or if this is all part of a long term plan that's been discussed with the player in question already. The worst I've heard Hartley say about Sven is "We want more from him." Hardly damning at all. Of course every talented young player wants to be out on the ice with the team, but I don't see any signs of a disconnect between the coach/player.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The only thing that makes sense to me in light of how Colborne and Monahan are mainstays in the lineup are that they are developing a new core, and trying to rid the franchise of the recent sink of 60 foot players and they feel the risk of alienating young players is worth the pain to develop that foundation in no uncertain terms now.

But looking at their deployment...

http://www.extraskater.com/players/deployment?team=cgy

... that doesn't make any sense either.

If Colborne and Monahan are all zone players then why is Hartley deploying them lopsidedly? If Backlund is being asked to get better in the front half then why doesn't he get more reps there? If the back half is where Baertschi needs to improve then why not give him more reps there? What Hartley says to the press is completely counter-intuitive to what he calls for on the ice.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Parallex

But looking at their deployment...

http://www.extraskater.com/players/deployment?team=cgy

... that doesn't make any sense either.

If Colborne and Monahan are all zone players then why is Hartley deploying them lopsidedly? If Backlund is being asked to get better in the front half then why doesn't he get more reps there? If the back half is where Baertschi needs to improve then why not give him more reps there? What Hartley says to the press is completely counter-intuitive to what he calls for on the ice.

Hey now, don't be bringing numbers into this. They confuse Hartley.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Not every player on Chicago plays a complete game. Most of them don't.

Sorry, but Baertschi is not Jonathan Toews and never will be. I'm sure Sven is sorry as well.

I know, but this season is like an extended training camp where the coaches need to teach the right way of playing and for the management group to evaluate what they see. If guys like Sven and Backlund are pushed but do not respond with a more complete effort at both ends, that's perfectly fine, but you get to know more of exactly what you have.

Backlund is a decent defensive minded player, who has a hard time generating offense. Giving him a hard time might motivate him to find his scoring touch. If that's the case, then you have a solid 2nd/3rd line center that's fairly good defensively. If not, then you have a solid defensive minded 3rd/4th line center. Either is not a problem, it's just figuring out exactly what you have.

Similarly with Baertschi, is he going to be an inconsistent force out there in terms of effort, or is he going to be consistent. The difference between them is him becoming potential 1st line forward or a depth scorer.

That's what needs to be found out right now, so that moving forward you have a better idea of what your actual areas of need are and can they be addressed through the draft/trade or free agency.

[return to the red]

photoshop skills required....

Hartley face in for the girl Baerstchi face in for the guy

[N-E-B]

My guess, and I could be wrong, would be that Baertschi has some kind of attitude problem. He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy, but I honestly don't see any other reason for him to e scratched, unless he's injured and they're just not saying anything.

[kipperfan]

Yikes, didn't think Hartley would bench him twice in a row, not sure about that decision, especially given the injury to Glencross. But again, as much as others want to slough it off, I can't get over the fact that Tim Jackman is now playing on the 2nd line. I'm well aware he won't play nearly as much Monahan or Hudler will, but it is still a horrid message to send throughout the organization, especially when your GM was preaching meritocracy in the off season.

If you feel sitting Sven is best for his development, fine, I can buy that. But playing Jackman on the 2nd line? How is that good for anybody? The fact he's still on the team rots my socks, and now he's also getting moved up the depth chart? We're a rebuilding team and he's an over the hill veteran who plays dirty and brings literally nothing we can't get from other players currently on the team (let along on the farm). What is the upside to keeping this guy around? Waive him already and start giving some of the young guys (hopefully) destined for bottom 6 roles in the NHL the chance to prove they belong!

/rant

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I know, but this season is like an extended training camp where the coaches need to teach the right way of playing and for the management group to evaluate what they see. If guys like Sven and Backlund are pushed but do not respond with a more complete effort at both ends, that's perfectly fine, but you get to know more of exactly what you have.

Backlund is a decent defensive minded player, who has a hard time generating offense. Giving him a hard time might motivate him to find his scoring touch. If that's the case, then you have a solid 2nd/3rd line center that's fairly good defensively. If not, then you have a solid defensive minded 3rd/4th line center. Either is not a problem, it's just figuring out exactly what you have.

Similarly with Baertschi, is he going to be an inconsistent force out there in terms of effort, or is he going to be consistent. The difference between them is him becoming potential 1st line forward or a depth scorer.

That's what needs to be found out right now, so that moving forward you have a better idea of what your actual areas of need are and can they be addressed through the draft/trade or free agency.

I think Sven and Mikael have responded just fine... I also think they've played just fine this year.

Sven had an off game against Chicago, and suddenly he's sitting for 2 straight games. That's what doesn't make sense to me.

Backlund was playing great in my opinion, and Hartley continued to reduce his ice time every game until he was no longer putting up points. And then Hartley suddenly has the audacity to say, "where did your offence go?".

Players respond differently. The same tactic does not work for all players. Sven played at a point per game after after the trade deadline because of increased opportunity... and it's not like any other Flames was playing close to this pace before.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

My guess, and I could be wrong, would be that Baertschi has some kind of attitude problem. He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy, but I honestly don't see any other reason for him to e scratched, unless he's injured and they're just not saying anything.

That seems to be Hartely's perception of it. The question is whether that's reasonable or a self-fulfilling prophecy. It seems like once Hartley's mind is made up, nothing can change it. Which is the fast-track to losing the team after getting consistent buy-in and effort to start the year.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

But playing Jackman on the 2nd line? How is that good for anybody? The fact he's still on the team rots my socks, and now he's also getting moved up the depth chart? We're a rebuilding team and he's an over the hill veteran who plays dirty and brings literally nothing we can't get from other players currently on the team (let along on the farm). What is the upside to keeping this guy around?

just wait until trade deadline!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

...Because if you read CP right now this is 100% Bob Hartley's fault and Sven Baertschi is being punished for being small and Swiss.

Which is hilarious, since Reto Berra is currently being rewarded for being huge and Swiss.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

That seems to be Hartely's perception of it. The question is whether that's reasonable or a self-fulfilling prophecy. It seems like once Hartley's mind is made up, nothing can change it. Which is the fast-track to losing the team after getting consistent buy-in and effort to start the year.

If a coach is feuding with a rookie, in my opinion, the will coach always be in the wrong.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I find it a head scratcher too ... believe me.

But then I always ask myself how the other side would have to look in order for it to be as annoying as it seems.

Hartley is scratching Baertschi and underemploying Backlund because he wants to get fired.
Hartley is scratching Baertschi and underemploying Backlund because he dislikes young players.
Hartley is scratching Baertschi and underemploying Backlund because he doesn't like Europeans
Hartley is scratching Baertschi and underemploying Backlund because has been told he has to finish last place or not get extended

all doubtful

The only thing that makes sense to me in light of how Colborne and Monahan are mainstays in the lineup are that they are developing a new core, and trying to rid the franchise of the recent sink of 60 foot players and they feel the risk of alienating young players is worth the pain to develop that foundation in no uncertain terms now.

I think the answer is that he does it because he's a bad coach. He's here because our GM did him a favour. It's tragic that a case of nepotism is so entwined with the future of our club.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If a coach is feuding with a rookie, in my opinion, the will coach always be in the wrong.

Wow

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Wow

Why would you think different?

If a 53 year old coach is quarreling with a 21 year old rookie (assuming that that there is an issue in the first place), who is really the problem? Who's really being more childish? There's a potential language barrier and all that.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think the answer is that he does it because he's a bad coach. He's here because our GM did him a favour. It's tragic that a case of nepotism is so entwined with the future of our club.

No, he's not. On a team without superstars, he wants his superstar-potential players to conduct their business in a manner that is in keeping with the best in the league. His treatment of Baertschi and Backlund is motivated by much longer-term thinking than beating Minnesota and St Louis on a couple random nights in November.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FBI

So for all the Hartley supporters, why are media people like Roger Millions and Eric Francis echoing the same sentiments as us about confusion with these scratches?

Wouldn't they have a little bit more insight as to what is going on than us?

Since neither Millions nor Francis has ever coached an NHL hockey team, then no, I would posit that they don't have a whole lot more insight than the intuitive fan.

It is unfortunate that Baertschi is not playing. I wish he were, and I don't understand why he is not. I also have never met him, and have no idea what sort of a person he is. I have never coached an NHL team, nor any professional hockey team, nor have I ever been employed in any capacity of professional hockey operations. Since Hartley, Cloutier, Gelinas, Burke and Feaster ALL can claim to have done ALL of these things, then I am QUITE CONVINCED that they know MUCH BETTER than I do, and they know MUCH BETTER than Millions and Francis about why it is a good idea to scratch Baertschi tonight.

I'm pretty sure that every single poster on this board has about as much professional hockey coaching and management experience as I do, so you will forgive me for not thinking very much of the opinions of those of you who are CERTAIN that this is an inconsolable mistake.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

No, he's not. On a team without superstars, he wants his superstar-potential players to conduct their business in a manner that is in keeping with the best in the league. His treatment of Baertschi and Backlund is motivated by much longer-term thinking than beating Minnesota and St Louis on a couple random nights in November.

I think Hartley sat Backlund and Baertschi because he truly believed that it would help the team win.

That's why I think Hartley is a bad coach.