Ring Road To Nowhere

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

Where does the indignation come from? We want to build a road so that people can get from Okotoks to Cross Iron Mills faster... not exactly the moral high ground.

Oh please. First of all, if you're going to say something so ridiculous, at least say Okotoks to Cochrane. And secondly, newsflash: the city has well over a million people, and the furthest west corridor we have is 14th st. This is not about moral high ground, it's about keeping the west side of the city functional.

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Oh please. First of all, if you're going to say something so ridiculous, at least say Okotoks to Cochrane. And secondly, newsflash: the city has well over a million people, and the furthest west corridor we have is 14th st. This is not about moral high ground, it's about keeping the west side of the city functional.

Our fault, not theirs.

[Fusebox]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Oh please. First of all, if you're going to say something so ridiculous, at least say Okotoks to Cochrane. And secondly, newsflash: the city has well over a million people, and the furthest west corridor we have is 14th st. This is not about moral high ground, it's about keeping the west side of the city functional.

An extra twenty minutes on your morning commute hardly qualifies as "keeping the west side of the city functional". First world problems, bro.

The white man made a deal with the natives way back when: we get all the natural resources and good land, you get some isolated patches of dirt called "reserves" to live on in abject poverty.

It shouldn't be there concern if the white man decides to build a city directly east of their reserve. Why should they feel any obligation to help us out? I really hope they keep the land, it is nice to see a group of people who can't be bought with money. If nothing else, it will make for some interesting reading from indignant white people who drive big expensive SUVs right here in this very thread.

[4X4]

Well, you both are entitled to your opinions. I can see how SUVs play a big part in the conversation, bro.

[Jedi Ninja]

Even if there was something they could legally do stick-wise, it would be a PR nightmare for the city and province.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Fusebox

There is no place for comments like that in this thread. The white man has been giving the stick to the natives of this country ever since they came here. It is shameful how the Canadian government has treated the natives.

Using the term 'natives' is just as derogatory a remark as he made.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

They don't have the financial capital to build such a road themselves. Tolls would never fully pay for the road either. It would probably take 30 years just to collect the cost of the road, without interest on borrowing money to build the road.

They are never going to get a significantly better deal than what is being offered now. Include opportunity cost, and there is no doubt that the best deal they can get is the deal before them now, IMO.


Assuming it's mostly a more guaranteed version of the 2009 agreement, the band would get tens of thousands of Calgarians coming to their doorstep every day, plus enough money to have a great start on developing land around the road for lease.

This is the part that I really wish the young Tsuu Tina would take notice of. They could have a really nice business center, right beside Calgary. A big swath of land that would be east of the road, basically part of Calgary, but completely owned by the Nation. Jobs galore for Tsuu Tina, and on top of that, the Nation would have bags and bags of money in the bank.

Yeah, us whiteys shouldn't have "built our city too close to the reserve" as some people in this thread have suggested, but 100 years later, we're facing a situation that would or COULD be symbiotic. This is an opportunity that I hope gets fair presentation to the voters.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

they may value more things than just money. .

More money?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

So lets say they so no. What do you suggest the city and province does to make them change their minds? Serious question.

Keep in mind, it has to be legal.

As has all ready been mentioned, cut off all non-guaranteed access to their casino. I'm also a fan of the shrinking pile of money: the longer they delay, the smaller the offer gets.

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

Where does the indignation come from?

My personal view is that human rights are human rights, and that being there first is not sufficient to grant one segment of society rights that others don't have. Morally, the first nations peoples should be subject to eminent domain just like everybody else. I recognize that legally this is not the case.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

They don't have the financial capital to build such a road themselves. Tolls would never fully pay for the road either. It would probably take 30 years just to collect the cost of the road, without interest on borrowing money to build the road.

They are never going to get a significantly better deal than what is being offered now. Include opportunity cost, and there is no doubt that the best deal they can get is the deal before them now, IMO.


Assuming it's mostly a more guaranteed version of the 2009 agreement, the band would get tens of thousands of Calgarians coming to their doorstep every day, plus enough money to have a great start on developing land around the road for lease.

Well they could get private company to build it, maintain it, collect the tolls and send them a cheque each year. They don't need to have the cash up front (assuming this is legal under the Indian Act). I'm in favour of toll roads in general, but if the SW portion is tolled, the rest of it better be as well. Lets throw the airport tunnel in for good measure!

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well they could get private company to build it, maintain it, collect the tolls and send them a cheque each year. They don't need to have the cash up front (assuming this is legal under the Indian Act). I'm in favour of toll roads in general, but if the SW portion is tolled, the rest of it better be as well. Lets throw the airport tunnel in for good measure!

Yea they probably could....or they could just let the City build it and get tons of money up front (which they could still invest and get an interest/dividend check from each year) instead of pissing off the City. If they vote this down it's more out of spite than anything, sure we built the City too close...but the government is offering land in exchange. Sure they might lose anything currently developed along the Ring road (is there anything there?) but they can use the ring road to bring money into the reserve with people driving through each day

[Fusebox]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

Using the term 'natives' is just as derogatory a remark as he made.

How so? Are they or are they not native to this country?

[Senator Clay Davis]

I'd say natives is pretty close to a derogatory term. Certainly whenever I hear it its not usually in a positive connotation. I believe the correct, PC term is "Aboriginal People".

[burn_this_city]

Why am I or anyone alive today responsible for what happened 150 years ago? People that treat First Nations as victims are enabling the cycle of poverty.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Fusebox

How so? Are they or are they not native to this country?

It's because the world is full of people waiting to be offended. The world is full of #####'s that freak out over the slightest thing. If they are native to the country then all them that. I think it is in some ways for apt to call them Native than Canadian. If people want to put a derogatory spin on it I think it comes from their own perceptions.

[Voodooman]

I predict the band will vote this deal down as well, for the same reason they voted down the 2009 deal. They feel they can hold the government hostage for more money, especially now that the east legs of the ring road are completed.

If that's the case, it's time to go to plan B. Cease all negotiations and come up with a plan on city land. Down 101st Street, across Glenmore then down either 37th or 14th Street. Use the money from the failed land deal to build the best road possible, with minimal impact on city residents. Ensure there is not one single point of entry to reserve lands from the freeway.

Alternatively, give up on the idea of the ring road, stay with what we have and improve infrastructure along Sarcee, Glenmore and 14th Street. Add lanes, install interchanges, make the goal removal of all traffic lights from these throughfares. Actually, I think I like this idea much better than either ring road scenario, but then again, I don't ever have to travel from deep NW to deep SW, so perhaps my appreciation of the problem is not realistic.

[Hessen]

It's time for ALL the reserves to go away. Whether you agree or not the natives have received land, monies and massive tax benefits for generations, almost all of which they have, for the most part, squandered. The longer they are treated differently than the rest of the populus the worse it becomes. The cord nees to be cut if they want to have any actual self reliance in todays world. Time to stop paying for the sins of our fathers and move forward as a country.

That being said. The city needs to stand firm on their offer and pose a time limit on it. If they once again refuse it go with Plan B which I believe is to skirt the reserve cutting off the Glenmore Trail access to the Grey Eagle Casino

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well they could get private company to build it, maintain it, collect the tolls and send them a cheque each year. They don't need to have the cash up front (assuming this is legal under the Indian Act). I'm in favour of toll roads in general, but if the SW portion is tolled, the rest of it better be as well. Lets throw the airport tunnel in for good measure!

Let's do some math here. Let's say that the reserve gets a private company to build, finance, and maintain the road and the road is built to the exact plans that the province came up with.

There's some complicated interchanges, so let's say the project costs $1 Billion.

Looking at the 2011 Calgary traffic volumes, the highest volume of traffic on NW Stoney is 50,000 vehicles per day, so let's use that.

It's not a long stretch of road, so you probably wouldn't get away with charging more than $2 or so to use the road, so I'm going to use that.

Assuming no interest for the time being, it would take 500 million vehicle trips to pay off the road, and at 50,000 vehicles per day, that takes 10,000 days to pay off the road - more than 27 years. But traffic volumes are lower on weekends, so you don't average 50,000 vehicles per day over all 365 days of the year.

Now let's assume interest must be paid, and let's say that they get a really good rate of 2%. To pay off $1 billion over 30 years at 2% interest requires a monthly payment of about $3.7 million.

That would require 1.85 million cars to drive every month with a $2 toll - an average of about 62,000 per day everyday.

I think it's a little bit questionable whether you could pay off the road in 30 years. Do they get financing with no money down and money payable over a longer term than 30 years?

All that assumes that people will still drive the road as much even if it has a toll, which probably isn't quite true. It's not like there couldn't be alternatives, and if even a little bit a of traffic leaves the existing roads for Stoney Trail, that probably helps those existing roads flow much smoother.

The reserve would also have to get the provincial government to build the rest of the road that would lead to their road, or else the whole thing would be pointless.

[Ducay]

As a West Side resident, I want this to go through.

As a fan of comedy and drama, I want this to be voted down. Cut them off at the knees (Grey Eagle access), and let the hilarity ensue.

[Senator Clay Davis]

100% agree if they shoot this down the city and province need to do everything they can to make accessing that casino incredibly difficult. Playing hardball works both ways after all.