Have you read the law? Yes or no? If no, are you comfortable saying that 140 millions of people should be ashamed of themselves because of the law that you haven't even read?
They're the *real* victims here.
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I was going to post a rebuttal to Pointman's posts, but photon said what I wanted to say......... but way better.
It was made to sound like there was something going on in Russia that the rest of the world just couldn't comprehend, but it doesn't sound like that's the case at all. We understand it, a lot of us just think it's just wrong.
This law is abhorrent. An attack on the very children it seeks to protect. For all the children it will save from the clutches of same-sex attraction (likely zero: if you subscribe to modern scientific findings and first-hand testimonials from those who actually deal with the affliction) it will harm innumerable more.
And let me pause and expand on using affliction to describe same-sex attraction, because I had great trouble settling on the use of that word, but that’s ultimately what it is.
The shame, guilt, denial, and dread of discovering an unchangeable truth. That to experience one of life’s few meaningful joys – mutual romantic love – comes with the caveat of disappointment or rejection from family, friends, or basically anyone who doesn’t understand your situation but feels entitled to partake in the demeaning of your character.
It’s astounding to think that one of the great cyber-movements of human history, the “It gets better campaign” would now be deemed illegal in Russia. Offering hope to suffering, disenchanted youth apparently carries a minimum price tag of 4000 rubles.
Pointman’s point is that Russia is a different country and culture, subscribing to different belief systems, and we as outsiders have little idea about the inner-goings and why this law may be appropriate, considering it is supported by the majority of the population.
However, lost is the irony that it is a law that sequesters those that are different, and although the majority of Mighty Russia are outsiders to the inner-goings of the homosexual, feel entitled in their suppression.
So what about this Patch?
Or this boycott?
Are they necessary? Would they prove helpful in the war against intolerance and discrimination?
I honestly don’t know. But I think the discussion is important.
Recently the 40 maps to explain the world displayed this discomforting graphic:
Spoiler!
Homosexuality is criminalized (including by death) in more countries than it is celebrated (in the form of recognizing same-sex unions).
Combine with this map, and the results are horrifying:
Spoiler!
Obviously homosexuality is something that crosses all countries and borders, race and religions. It’s a human condition. Obviously it’s interpreted differently worldwide. The cause and effect.
But it’s something that the majority of the world still approaches in a negative light. So who’s to say we’re necessarily in the right? Again, I don’t know.
But here’s what I do know:
I didn’t want or choose to be gay. But I am. And am incredibly fortunate to be born in an area of the world and in a time where I’m accepted into society and awarded my human rights, regardless my orientation.
There is a child in Russia right now. Who didn’t want or choose to be gay. But he/she is. And now it will have to battle its inner turmoil completely internally. Because Russian society deems them to be different and they should be treated as such.
Affliction indeed.
I would love to see the day when that word no longer fits. When the realization of homosexuality is akin to the discovery of left handedness. But it’s a long way to go in many parts of the world. Kudos to Canada for its progressiveness on the issue. A leader in the healing process for those who were suffering. One patch at a time.
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You almost contradict yourself back to back. Let me give you a tip: If you say something about nobody caring about women's rights in Qatar, concerning soccer, in a thread about gay rights in Russia, concerning the Olympics, and you expect that people WON'T make the clear connection that you're comparing the two with a negative connotation towards all the support point B is getting, then guy, that is on YOU.
Sorry he missed your point? More like sorry you failed in making it. Own your mistake. If you want to explain yourself go ahead, but don't roll in with "sorry you missed my point" and "feel free to argue with yourself". Grow up.
Thanks for the tip if somebody wants to call me a bigot and they are wrong then I am going to speak up. There was nothing in my post that would say I had a problem with too much attention or too little. my problem is that I was assumed as I had a problem with too much and then being called a fool for it.
Telling somebody to grow up really reflects poorly on you.
If you are gay, why are you so hell bent to tell about it to MY children? Aren't you violating MY human rights by telling MY children things that I don't want them to hear? It's not YOUR child, so let ME raise her the way I feel is the best. This is what this law is about. Think of it as a joint declaration of russian parents that they don't want gays to put their views into the faces of their children. What's wrong with this?
First off, I think you made a good post and spelled out your arguments/beliefs well. The balance between raising a kid the way society wants to raise him/her and what parents want is often a juggling act in many societies. With that said, understand that the "problem" is that your ideals are not shared by North American society as a whole.
I don't know how things are in Russia, but here in North America, YOUR right as a parent is not unlimited. You don't have a right to prevent your kid from going to school or getting schooling. If you don't like the fact that your kid is being taught things in school that you don't want him/her to hear you have very limited rights to pull your kid out of that class. If you are in a public place and you don't like the fact that somebody nearby is talking about their wild night of sex last night, your best option is to leave because freedom of speech trumps your right to control what other people say nearby of even in front of your kids. And guess what might happens if you decide to spank your kid because your kid misbehaved? Your kid might and can be taken away from you.
Another example is segregation. What if parents in a certain community unanimously (a joint declaration?) want their kids to go to a school that only has kids born from a heterosexual Christian couple? You think they have the right to a school like that? They don't, because Canadian society has deemed segregation to be bad and undesirable and any violation of a parent's right to raise their kids is a necessary evil if you even want to call it that.
Maybe, just maybe, I was making a comment about how there is a shockingly low amount of support about women's rights and the World cup going to Qatar and that is disappointing. In comparison to this it sure is. It may be a long way away but it was pretty quiet when it was awarded. There was more of a fuss about the weather there than women's rights.
I have decided, based on Qatar's record on women's rights, that I will boycott watching *any* of the matches and ignore the tournament in its totality.
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Thanks for the tip if somebody wants to call me a bigot and they are wrong then I am going to speak up. There was nothing in my post that would say I had a problem with too much attention or too little. my problem is that I was assumed as I had a problem with too much and then being called a fool for it.
Telling somebody to grow up really reflects poorly on you.
Well now you know! My point was, if you post something and it comes off completely wrong, don't attack others for responding to the most obvious interpretation, feel free to explain yourself maturely and I'm sure you'd garner an apology from those who incorrectly interpreted your point. However, I see your M.O. is to add a little line at the end of every post that attempts to antagonise other posters, so I doubt you have any interest in REALLY being understood. If that's the case, have at 'er kid. Do your thing. Find someone else to engage in that game.
(I haven't read all posts above since my last post here)
First I'd like to point out, that this law is likely never going to be abused. It took me a night to grasp it, but it is clear that if russian goverment will start a witch hunt on gays, they will jail them for fake serious crimes, such as fake drug dealing cases, fake rapes cases and so on. It is stupid to suggest that Putin will use this law to hunt down russian gays unless you truly believe that the plan is to fine them into bankrupcy with recurrent $150 fines. This simple point goes to show how silly some western media are about it. They are trying to sell it as oppressing law, but it is essentially a parental law.
To get a better understanding of problems this law is supposed to solve — and I'm not saying that it surely will, — listen to Valeriya Perfilova's interview in english (starts at around 3 minutes mark)
Her words "I (straight person) feel a minority now and I want to protect my children" is an indication of how many russian parents feel. This law was enforced due to overwhelming and uncontrolled amount of gay propaganda that flooded Russia in recent years. What amount is "overwhelming" and what is not is subjective and debatable of course, but when such a vast majority thinks that it is excessive, you can believe that it probably is.
And this is the same Valeriya Perfilova, who starred in lesbian video to her song:
She has no problem with gays and lesbians and doesn't mind occasionally doing it herself, but she wants to keep her children out of it. That's what a lot of russians feel.
(there's also a certain context about Russian ethnic population shrinking, European's multiculture society "utterly failing" according to the very european politicians, such as Angela Merkel, and Russians being scared by riots in London, Paris and Stockholm and thus being hugely disappointed in europeans ideals of tolerance and openness to other cultures, nations and orientations. But I'm not going much into this.)
What I'm getting at is the very idea of the law. And it is simple:
Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins.
This is the very basic of democracy. And this is what this law is all about.
It's all right being gay. Several russian celebrities, such as Surganova, Sosedov, Dmitrychenko are openly gay/lesbian. You have your gay clubs, you can have work and everything you want. But your freedom to be gay ends where noses of my children begin.
You don't tell to your friend things like "I had a great wild oral sex with my wife" when his four years old daughter is around, do you?
Am I not violating your precious human rights by asking you to not talk about wild oral sex when my 4 years old daughter is around? The same way, could you please don't talk about being gay when my four years old is around? Let me put her to bed and we will go in lengthly details over the pleasures of being gay. What are my reasons for asking this? I just don't want my child to hear it, don't I have such a right? I apologize, if you feel that the equity of humanity was offended by this humble request.
This is the same approach, as
"Religion is like a penis, it's fine to have one and be proud of it, but when you take it out and wave it in my face, that's when we have a problem"
Is it too much to ask? Is it really such a big deal? Or is it blown out of proportion for some reason? If you are gay, why are you so hell bent to tell about it to MY children? Aren't you violating MY human rights by telling MY children things that I don't want them to hear? It's not YOUR child, so let ME raise her the way I feel is the best. This is what this law is about. Think of it as a joint declaration of russian parents that they don't want gays to put their views into the faces of their children. What's wrong with this?
Now what if my kid is gay? It's fine. I can take him to the gay club. He is free to search for gay partners there or via internet (there are gay options on most russian dating sites). I can tell him that being gay is ok/awesome since he's 5 years old, if I so wish. I can do everything I want with my own gay kid. But my freedom to do it ends where noses of other children begin
Look who thanked your post...............
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Last edited by undercoverbrother; 08-30-2013 at 09:04 AM.
I have decided, based on Qatar's record on women's rights, that I will boycott watching *any* of the matches and ignore the tournament in its totality.
As far as middle east nations go, Qatar is fairly secular. The World cup there is still 9 years away, too. There might be changes there by then. It's already the best country for human rights in the area, though they still have a ways to go. I think they will progress enough that it won't be a worry by 2022.
I wouldn't want to guess what percentage of silent people are anti-gay, but I think its a safe assumption that with the reactions it stirs up the majority of anti-gay people will just stay silent to avoid being treated like they are worse than nothing.
That's too bad, they deserve that treatment.
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I'll buy that Pointman. All the power to you all if that is how this law shakes down.
It is a little odd to me though that a law was made to mandate some common sense but if the people feel it's needed, there's nothing no one from anywhere else can do a darned thing about it. It's a little backwards I admit though.
I'll agree with flameswin on one thing though. This thread got ugly, for both sides. When you're arguing for tolerance with intolerance, you're already losing the battle.
EDIT: Reminds me of a quote from somewhere: "I may not agree with what you say sir, but I will fight to the death your right to say it."
People who support initiatives to deny basic human rights deserve no tolerance.
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When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
As far as middle east nations go, Qatar is fairly secular. The World cup there is still 9 years away, too. There might be changes there by then. It's already the best country for human rights in the area, though they still have a ways to go. I think they will progress enough that it won't be a worry by 2022.
Well, then, I'll boycott solely out of the fact that I find soccer boring.
As far as middle east nations go, Qatar is fairly secular. The World cup there is still 9 years away, too. There might be changes there by then. It's already the best country for human rights in the area, though they still have a ways to go. I think they will progress enough that it won't be a worry by 2022.
And even if a country has rights that are lower than they should be...if they are moving in the right direction that is important.
Russia's law is 180 from the right direction
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As far as middle east nations go, Qatar is fairly secular. The World cup there is still 9 years away, too. There might be changes there by then. It's already the best country for human rights in the area, though they still have a ways to go. I think they will progress enough that it won't be a worry by 2022.
If they're progressing, that's pretty important. Russia is going backwards. Progress can be left alone (although it can also be nudged along). Regress requires an intervention.
Same mentality that those actually killing gays have, you must be proud.
A kidnappers kidnaps a kid and locks him up.
A judge then sentences the kidnapper to prison, locking him up.
The actions are the same, but the motive is different. Intolerance towards bigotry is not a form of bigotry, just like putting a criminal in jail isn't kidnapping.
People who support initiatives to deny basic human rights deserve no tolerance.
Assuming Pointman is accurate on his take of the law in his country, what human rights are being violated? Stopping people from protesting or promoting homosexuality to minors are not basic human rights. Marriage is not a basic human right.
They don't receive equal privileges, but that is not the same as being denied human rights. It needs to be changed, but it has to be done over time because as I have tried saying you have to change the way people think, you can't just force change none are willing to accept.
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A kidnappers kidnaps a kid and locks him up.
A judge then sentences the kidnapper to prison, locking him up.
The actions are the same, but the motive is different. Intolerance towards bigotry is not a form of bigotry, just like putting a criminal in jail isn't kidnapping.
Expressing an opinion is not the same as kidnapping though, just saying
Though I often said "I hate those that hate. And realize that that is circular." I don't like that bigots, misogynists, homophobes and such make my skin crawl. And I should show them compassion because they are just sick or have been taught these things from another hateful person. But I can't. I'll just do what the good book says and "Don't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist, Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat. Then Go After The #######s."
