Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[octothorp]

I totally support this as an individual choice for athletes, and it actually has very little to do with the changing the Russian law, which, let's face it, isn't going to change as a result of three weeks of international pressure.

Instead, it has to do with the message that it sends to gay individuals, both in Russia and in other nations. It's pretty easy these days in western culture for an athlete to be pro gay rights. Most gay rights parades have local prominent athletes in them, but that's essentially showing your support to the most sympathetic audience. Showing support for gay rights on a global stage in a country that's staunchly opposed not only to a discussion about homosexuality is more an act of courage would be a pretty big deal. I think it would be a major statement on gay rights here in Canada (and a somewhat minor but still significant statement for the gay community in Russia).

That said, I'd rather it come from a choice by athletes themselves. Ten or fifty or a hundred individual athletes stepping up and wearing a badge by personal choice is more of a statement than 200 athletes being told to wear a badge by their committee heads. However, such a policy of making it individual choice makes it a thorny issue for a team sport like hockey. If some athletes choose to wear it and others don't, those who don't are going to be perceived, correctly or incorrectly, as anti-gay back home. I wouldn't want a situation where any athlete feels pressured into wearing a badge because their teammates are doing it and they don't want to piss off anyone. That's not the way to encourage discussion either. So I don't have an answer for what should happen with the hockey team, but I do hope the COC finds a way to help individual athletes express their support.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I wouldn't want to guess what percentage of silent people are anti-gay, but I think its a safe assumption that with the reactions it stirs up the majority of anti-gay people will just stay silent to avoid being treated like they are worse than nothing.

Worse than nothing huh? Heaven forbid they would speak up in support of gay people being treated like lesser humans and have the majority of responders treat them, in turn, like they are lesser humans.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I wouldn't want to guess what percentage of silent people are anti-gay, but I think its a safe assumption that with the reactions it stirs up the majority of anti-gay people will just stay silent to avoid being treated like they are worse than nothing.

Stayed silent because I dont really care if team Canada wears rainbow patches. Came in to post that I'm sure this is the reason most people haven't posted. I believe in this country and the principles of freedom and equality, I'm not gay and could not give a #### if someone is. It's their choice. You however have made a pretty good case for being treated "worse than nothing".

Well mister pity party if you feel terrible about being labelled for the way you're being treated about what you say and how you feel how do you think the LBGT community feels? You looking for pity is the most ironic thing I've read in a long while.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I wouldn't want to guess what percentage of silent people are anti-gay, but I think its a safe assumption that with the reactions it stirs up the majority of anti-gay people will just stay silent to avoid being treated like they are worse than nothing.

I would think a huge majority of people (maybe 95%) that are "Anti-Gay" are so because of their religious believes so it isn't likely that they are going to care that much what flameswin, strombad, MMF etc. care about them.

I think the reason that many are staying quiet is because the thread has become so hostile from both sides that the average poster isn't going to want to wade into it and with both vocal "sides" saying such ridiculous things that who wants to be asscociated with either group.

Most people are probably much more moderate than either side here so much easier to stay out let those folks have their argument amongst themselves then get sucked into this argument here.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by moon

Most people are probably much more moderate than either side here so much easier to stay out let those folks have their argument amongst themselves then get sucked into this argument here.

I'm curious what constitutes a "moderate" position when it comes to granting fairly basic human rights.

[moon]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I'm curious what constitutes a "moderate" position when it comes to granting fairly basic human rights.

In terms of this thread I would say a moderate is someone who thinks that the Russian law is wrong, homosexuals should be given every right as a heterosexual and that screaming at everyone who doesn't believe that isn't necessary and wearing a rainbow patch on a hockey jersey isn't necessary either.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by moon

In terms of this thread I would say a moderate is someone who thinks that the Russian law is wrong, homosexuals should be given every right as a heterosexual and that screaming at everyone who doesn't believe that isn't necessary and wearing a rainbow patch on a hockey jersey isn't necessary either.

Well go back and read the thread, that's certainly not what I am "screaming" about, nor was I screaming.

[Fire]

I don't want anything on the jerseys but if Crosby and Luongo want to make out after being rewarded with the gold medal then that's their own personal choice.

[moon]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well go back and read the thread, that's certainly not what I am "screaming" about, nor was I screaming.

Good for you I guess.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by moon

Good for you I guess.

Not good for anyone, just correcting you. Sorry if you don't like that.

[moon]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Not good for anyone, just correcting you. Sorry if you don't like that.

Correcting me about what?

I didn't say your were screaming about anything. I included your name as someone who the 'anti-gay" crowd wouldn't care about what was thought about them because you commented on Alberta Beef's post.

The second paragraph that I wrote talking about the vocal crowd didn't include you in it.

[Pointman]

(I haven't read all posts above since my last post here)

First I'd like to point out, that this law is likely never going to be abused. It took me a night to grasp it, but it is clear that if russian goverment will start a witch hunt on gays, they will jail them for fake serious crimes, such as fake drug dealing cases, fake rapes cases and so on. It is stupid to suggest that Putin will use this law to hunt down russian gays unless you truly believe that the plan is to fine them into bankrupcy with recurrent $150 fines. This simple point goes to show how silly some western media are about it. They are trying to sell it as oppressing law, but it is essentially a parental law.

To get a better understanding of problems this law is supposed to solve — and I'm not saying that it surely will, — listen to Valeriya Perfilova's interview in english (starts at around 3 minutes mark)

http://www.indexoncensorship.org/201...ses-in-russia/

Her words "I (straight person) feel a minority now and I want to protect my children" is an indication of how many russian parents feel. This law was enforced due to overwhelming and uncontrolled amount of gay propaganda that flooded Russia in recent years. What amount is "overwhelming" and what is not is subjective and debatable of course, but when such a vast majority thinks that it is excessive, you can believe that it probably is.

And this is the same Valeriya Perfilova, who starred in lesbian video to her song:

http://irsolo.ru/pevice-valerii-yaro...bijskom-video/

She has no problem with gays and lesbians and doesn't mind occasionally doing it herself, but she wants to keep her children out of it. That's what a lot of russians feel.

(there's also a certain context about Russian ethnic population shrinking, European's multiculture society "utterly failing" according to the very european politicians, such as Angela Merkel, and Russians being scared by riots in London, Paris and Stockholm and thus being hugely disappointed in europeans ideals of tolerance and openness to other cultures, nations and orientations. But I'm not going much into this.)

What I'm getting at is the very idea of the law. And it is simple:

Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins.

This is the very basic of democracy. And this is what this law is all about.

It's all right being gay. Several russian celebrities, such as Surganova, Sosedov, Dmitrychenko are openly gay/lesbian. You have your gay clubs, you can have work and everything you want. But your freedom to be gay ends where noses of my children begin.

You don't tell to your friend things like "I had a great wild oral sex with my wife" when his four years old daughter is around, do you?
Am I not violating your precious human rights by asking you to not talk about wild oral sex when my 4 years old daughter is around? The same way, could you please don't talk about being gay when my four years old is around? Let me put her to bed and we will go in lengthly details over the pleasures of being gay. What are my reasons for asking this? I just don't want my child to hear it, don't I have such a right? I apologize, if you feel that the equity of humanity was offended by this humble request.

This is the same approach, as

"Religion is like a penis, it's fine to have one and be proud of it, but when you take it out and wave it in my face, that's when we have a problem"

Is it too much to ask? Is it really such a big deal? Or is it blown out of proportion for some reason? If you are gay, why are you so hell bent to tell about it to MY children? Aren't you violating MY human rights by telling MY children things that I don't want them to hear? It's not YOUR child, so let ME raise her the way I feel is the best. This is what this law is about. Think of it as a joint declaration of russian parents that they don't want gays to put their views into the faces of their children. What's wrong with this?

Now what if my kid is gay? It's fine. I can take him to the gay club. He is free to search for gay partners there or via internet (there are gay options on most russian dating sites). I can tell him that being gay is ok/awesome since he's 5 years old, if I so wish. I can do everything I want with my own gay kid. But my freedom to do it ends where noses of other children begin.

[MrMastodonFarm]

How does that need a law, how does that need to law separate from talking ng about hetero sex with a child?

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Aren't you violating MY human rights by telling MY children things that I don't want them to hear? It's not YOUR child, so let ME raise her the way I feel is the best. This is what this law is about.

If that's what it's really about your politicians better get busy writing up laws for pretty much...............everything.

Just sounds like an excuse for a country that thinks homosexuality is icky.

[dammage79]

I'll buy that Pointman. All the power to you all if that is how this law shakes down.

It is a little odd to me though that a law was made to mandate some common sense but if the people feel it's needed, there's nothing no one from anywhere else can do a darned thing about it. It's a little backwards I admit though.

I'll agree with flameswin on one thing though. This thread got ugly, for both sides. When you're arguing for tolerance with intolerance, you're already losing the battle.

EDIT: Reminds me of a quote from somewhere: "I may not agree with what you say sir, but I will fight to the death your right to say it."

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Pointman

(I haven't read all posts above since my last post here)

First I'd like to point out, that this law is likely never going to be abused. It took me a night to grasp it, but it is clear that if russian goverment will start a witch hunt on gays, they will jail them for fake serious crimes, such as fake drug dealing cases, fake rapes cases and so on. It is stupid to suggest that Putin will use this law to hunt down russian gays unless you truly believe that the plan is to fine them into bankrupcy with recurrent $150 fines. This simple point goes to show how silly some western media are about it. They are trying to sell it as oppressing law, but it is essentially a parental law.

To get a better understanding of problems this law is supposed to solve — and I'm not saying that it surely will, — listen to Valeriya Perfilova's interview in english (starts at around 3 minutes mark)

http://www.indexoncensorship.org/201...ses-in-russia/

Her words "I (straight person) feel a minority now and I want to protect my children" is an indication of how many russian parents feel. This law was enforced due to overwhelming and uncontrolled amount of gay propaganda that flooded Russia in recent years. What amount is "overwhelming" and what is not is subjective and debatable of course, but when such a vast majority thinks that it is excessive, you can believe that it probably is.

And this is the same Valeriya Perfilova, who starred in lesbian video to her song:

http://irsolo.ru/pevice-valerii-yaro...bijskom-video/

She has no problem with gays and lesbians and doesn't mind occasionally doing it herself, but she wants to keep her children out of it. That's what a lot of russians feel.

(there's also a certain context about Russian ethnic population shrinking, European's multiculture society "utterly failing" according to the very european politicians, such as Angela Merkel, and Russians being scared by riots in London, Paris and Stockholm and thus being hugely disappointed in europeans ideals of tolerance and openness to other cultures, nations and orientations. But I'm not going much into this.)

What I'm getting at is the very idea of the law. And it is simple:

Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins.

This is the very basic of democracy. And this is what this law is all about.

It's all right being gay. Several russian celebrities, such as Surganova, Sosedov, Dmitrychenko are openly gay/lesbian. You have your gay clubs, you can have work and everything you want. But your freedom to be gay ends where noses of my children begin.

You don't tell to your friend things like "I had a great wild oral sex with my wife" when his four years old daughter is around, do you?
Am I not violating your precious human rights by asking you to not talk about wild oral sex when my 4 years old daughter is around? The same way, could you please don't talk about being gay when my four years old is around? Let me put her to bed and we will go in lengthly details over the pleasures of being gay. What are my reasons for asking this? I just don't want my child to hear it, don't I have such a right? I apologize, if you feel that the equity of humanity was offended by this humble request.

This is the same approach, as

"Religion is like a penis, it's fine to have one and be proud of it, but when you take it out and wave it in my face, that's when we have a problem"

Is it too much to ask? Is it really such a big deal? Or is it blown out of proportion for some reason? If you are gay, why are you so hell bent to tell about it to MY children? Aren't you violating MY human rights by telling MY children things that I don't want them to hear? It's not YOUR child, so let ME raise her the way I feel is the best. This is what this law is about. Think of it as a joint declaration of russian parents that they don't want gays to put their views into the faces of their children. What's wrong with this?

Now what if my kid is gay? It's fine. I can take him to the gay club. He is free to search for gay partners there or via internet (there are gay options on most russian dating sites). I can tell him that being gay is ok/awesome since he's 5 years old, if I so wish. I can do everything I want with my own gay kid. But my freedom to do it ends where noses of other children begin.

So just to clarify, you're saying there has been an "overwhelming and uncontrolled amount of gay propaganda" that has "flooded" Russia recently, causing large amounts of Heterosexual children to turn gay? If so, wow, that is pretty amazing stuff. But I have to ask, how can you (or anyone in Russia, or anyone anywhere for that matter) prove that this "gay propaganda" is making straight children gay? Also, what exactly is "gay propaganda"? Do you have any examples to share with us? As I am extremely curious to see this seemingly magical documentation that is allegedly altering the sexual orientation of Russian children...

[Devils'Advocate]

dammage: I don't buy that for a second, If somebody started a thread saying that blacks people are less intelligent than white people and naturally savagely violent, would you expect people to just let that go? I am PROUD to have intolerance for the intolerant. If we don't stand up to bigots and tell them to F-off, it only lets that view gain acceptance.

I remember Micheal Moore going to a KKK rally and giving them hugs and chocolate hearts. I guess he's a better man than I. it would take all my willpower not to bop them one.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

(I haven't read all posts above since my last post here)

First I'd like to point out, that this law is likely never going to be abused.

Well I've never ever heard that one before. Ever. Anywhere. Totally unheard of.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Is it too much to ask? Is it really such a big deal? Or is it blown out of proportion for some reason? If you are gay, why are you so hell bent to tell about it to MY children? Aren't you violating MY human rights by telling MY children things that I don't want them to hear? It's not YOUR child, so let ME raise her the way I feel is the best. This is what this law is about. Think of it as a joint declaration of russian parents that they don't want gays to put their views into the faces of their children. What's wrong with this?

Aren't you violating my human rights by telling my children that black people are equal to white people? Aren't you violating my human rights by telling my children that hetrosexual couples are better than homosexual ones? Aren't you violating my human rights by telling my children about your religion (or lack of religion)?

Every single idea can be put into your "it's my child" argument, in either direction, which means this law needs to be expanded to include every idea that a parent could possibly disagree with (aren't you violating my human rights by telling my child that they need veggies to be healthy?!). Which just shows the whole sentiment is ridiculous.

You still haven't described the harm to children... because there isn't any. There's only perceived harm by parents who are so ignorant that they fear their children will be turned gay.

"Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins.", the liberty ends because to continue to swing the fist will cause undue harm, not just because the nose happens to exist. Until you can show harm (and show that that harm is worse than the harm limiting free speech has on a society), I don't see any convincing argument.

Instead it looks more like trying to find justification for bigotry.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Pointman

Am I not violating your precious human rights by asking you to not talk about wild oral sex when my 4 years old daughter is around? The same way, could you please don't talk about being gay when my four years old is around?

That you have to stretch so far to create your scenario indicates how ridiculous it is. No reasonable person will agree that talking about being gay is equivalent to talking about wild oral sex. A heterosexual individual can talk about inappropriate wild oral sex to a child as well, where's the call for a law to limit that? I'd find it frightening that you think such situations need to be resolved by laws, but the way you intentionally formed the false equivalence just shows that it's really the gayness that's the root problem for the people who support the law.

Still wondering what your definition of "non-traditional sexual relationships" is and why an infertile black/white couple would not fall under that definition.. or have you abandoned your previous line of rationalization as it wasn't being fruitful?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

To get a better understanding of problems this law is supposed to solve — and I'm not saying that it surely will, — listen to Valeriya Perfilova's interview in english (starts at around 3 minutes mark)

http://www.indexoncensorship.org/201...ses-in-russia/

So I listened to this person in the video, she doesn't make any real point at all, about the only things I took away from what she said is that she feels she needs to defend her kids from gays (without actually saying what she's defending them from), that Russian society is based on Christian morality (, really?) and that attempted child abuse is in her eyes relevant to the issue; that gays are predators, or stopping propaganda that legitimizes "non-traditional sexual relationships" somehow will stop child predators; or something.

So yeah, if she's representative of the general populace I think it does give us a better understanding, but probably not in the way you'd like... she's horrifying.