The Flames and Oilers rebuilds similar beginings

[djsFlames]

I think the Flames have been very quietly rebuilding since 2011. The new management made a point of keeping all high picks, and the drafting strategies appeared vastly altered. They continued to retool, but I think their drafting was very much aimed at getting a head start on an inevitable tear down that was going to happen. Or maybe I'm just saying it cause 2011 was such a great draft class for us, and may produce just in itself a top 3 d-man and 2 top six forwards for the club in the future.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Can you point me to any scouting reports that project Murray to be anything more than a #2 defenceman? There's lots of reports projecting Yakupov as a prolific goal scorer, I'll leave you to look those up.

I'll remind you that, even a year ago, no one projected Brodie to be any more than a 5/6 defenseman. Anyone who dared suggest he could be a 3/4 guy was called a homer.

You called Murray a #2 guy - it is up to you to back it up, not up to me to disprove it. Same goes for Yakupov - where are the 'he's a 40 goal scorer' reports?

More importantly, even if someone has made both those claims (and this is the point of the first paragraph), they are meaningless. We don't know what any of these players will turn out to be. So you saying that this guy is going to be one thing while that guy is going to be something else is nothing more than hot garbage.

My evaluation of Yakupov, which you didn't quote, focused only on what I see, not on someone else's projections.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I'll remind you that, even a year ago, no one projected Brodie to be any more than a 5/6 defenseman. Anyone who dared suggest he could be a 3/4 guy was called a homer.

You called Murray a #2 guy - it is up to you to back it up, not up to me to disprove it. Same goes for Yakupov - where are the 'he's a 40 goal scorer' reports?

More importantly, even if someone has made both those claims (and this is the point of the first paragraph), they are meaningless. We don't know what any of these players will turn out to be. So you saying that this guy is going to be one thing while that guy is going to be something else is nothing more than hot garbage.

My evaluation of Yakupov, which you didn't quote, focused only on what I see, not on someone else's projections.

This is only one report... it states clearly that Yak is potentially in the same stratosphere as Hall and Tavares (needless to say, high praise. Maybe not 40 goal potential, but high praise none the less). Ryan Murray - he's not even expected to be the #1 guy. The interviewee also mentions that Ryan Murray is a Kevin Lowe type. I would NEVER spend a high pick for a potential Kevin Lowe.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...9235--nhl.html

[Tinordi]

I'll remind you that, even a year ago, no one projected Brodie to be any more than a 5/6 defenseman. Anyone who dared suggest he could be a 3/4 guy was called a homer.

You called Murray a #2 guy - it is up to you to back it up, not up to me to disprove it. Same goes for Yakupov - where are the 'he's a 40 goal scorer' reports?

More importantly, even if someone has made both those claims (and this is the point of the first paragraph), they are meaningless. We don't know what any of these players will turn out to be. So you saying that this guy is going to be one thing while that guy is going to be something else is nothing more than hot garbage.

My evaluation of Yakupov, which you didn't quote, focused only on what I see, not on someone else's projections.

Your point is essentially that any stats, projection or scouting analysis of a player is useless because some players are exceptions. Meaning that any discussion of players who aren't established NHL players is baseless and we shouldn't do it. It's a argument based on nihilism.

I prefer to talk about prospects using the best but admittedly flawed data we have. I've taken your point under advisement that we just shouldn't talk about it all and will subsequently ignore it.

Getting back to the discussion, Murray vs. Yakupov the basic criticism of the OIlers is that Murray + whatever they'd get trading down would be better than Yakupov for that team. Sure maybe. I happen to think that the gap between Yakupov and Murray is too big for that to be the case.

I'm not going to go digging in old scouting reports but of my read last year Murray was a minute eating solid but not flashing 2-3 defenceman and Yakupov an elite goal scorer. There's no question who you take between the two and even then if Yakupov isn't what your team needs you trade him as a player for a much greater return than as a pick on draft day.

[theoforever]

We all hate oilers and rightfully so.
However, their young players Eberle, RNH and Yakupov have star power written all over them and Hall is even better.
At this point we cannot say that Monahan is as good as Yakupov but in a few months we will get an idea.
I hope that Monahan turns out to be #1 center and becomes better than Hall, there is no way of knowing at this point but it could happen.
Yakupov just like Monahan is too young to predict the ceiling.
If the kid was a Flame we would be happy and criticism would be coming from Oiler land.

Right now Oil top end is way better than ours, I think we have more depth in lower positions.
This upcoming season I’m predicting that we will be better than what the experts are saying and that in 2015/16 we will bottom out.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Izzle

Thats fine and good. It however, doesnt suggest that Monahan is better than Yakupov. That is an interpretation being made by fans.

Not saying he is better, just saying he very well could be the same caliber of player. Only time will tell. My main point I was trying to make is that draft position should be taken with a grain of salt because it really boils down to the depth at the draft. Patrick Stefan was a first overall pick but that draft was just horrible.

Note: I should clarify by same caliber I mean first line player.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Not saying he is better, just saying he very well could be the same caliber of player. Only time will tell. My main point I was trying to make is that draft position should be taken with a grain of salt because it really boils down to the depth at the draft. Patrick Stefan was a first overall pick but that draft was just horrible.

Note: I should clarify by same caliber I mean first line player.

I completely get that. I personally feel Patrick Stefan is a poor example and something that occurred back when teams didnt necessarily have the best scouting staff.

Anyways, I dont think Monahan will be able to match Yakupov in terms of points scored, but two way play could be Toews-lite. I like that no matter how you slice it.

[Tinordi]

It's not a rub against Monahan, I think he's a great prospect. I just think that it's a tough sell to say he would have been picked over Yakupov if he was eligible last year. I'll listen to arguments.

[Enoch Root]

Some thought Galchenyuk was better than Yakupov. I agree.

[Enoch Root]

Yakupov went #1 because it was a very weak draft at the top. Would have been fascinating to see where he would have gone this year.

I think Nichushkin was a better prospect than Yakupov

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Again this reads like ginned up rival talk.

Hall is by far the best the Oilers have to offer. I believe the jury is still out. Until that kid learns to skate with his head up I will not consider him a top anything. As I said, he had a good half season after having a very mediocre 2nd. He has to prove he can play a full season at the same level displayed last season before he proclaimed anything of note. That would be the expectation you would hold for Flames players so I have no idea why you hold Oilers players to a different standard.

Nugent-Hopkins had a great rookie year. Then the rest of league caught on to him and the way he plays and he got crushed. Not surprised, it happens a lot. The Nuge is going to have to prove he can withstand the rigors of the NHL game and he can survive playing with men. He's never been an overly slippery player, so it will be interesting to see if he survives. It will also be interesting to see if he recovers from his injuries and if he can produce to the level expected of a number one pick. While you say there is a lot to be optimistic about, he does have to prove that optimism is correct. Coming soon, this fall?

You can complain all you want about the treatment Yakupov gets but he deserves it. The kid is a punk and not a good hockey player at this point. Yeah, he can put a puck in the net, but can he play the other 185 feet of the ice? So far I think the answer is no. I'd rather Yakupov was on the Oilers than my team, especially on game nights. While you build him up like he's the next Ovechkin I see him more of the next Kovalchuk. As Atlanta or New Jersey fans how they liked him. Even when he was scoring he was a tough player to cheer for. When he wasn't scoring they hated him. Yakupov is that type of player. Don't like those type of players and never will. He may still change his ways, but he has to prove he is not another Kovalchuk and is a complete player.

What I do find funny is that if these guys were all Flames players you would be going out of your way to pick them apart and convince everyone how bad they are or what an uphill battle they have to ever succeed in the NHL. But they are Oilers and you can piss people off by defending them, so you choose to do so. I wish you put as much work into supporting our players as you do in supporting players from other teams or tearing ours down. It would make threads much more enjoyable and less frustrating.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Izzle

This is only one report... it states clearly that Yak is potentially in the same stratosphere as Hall and Tavares (needless to say, high praise. Maybe not 40 goal potential, but high praise none the less). Ryan Murray - he's not even expected to be the #1 guy. The interviewee also mentions that Ryan Murray is a Kevin Lowe type. I would NEVER spend a high pick for a potential Kevin Lowe.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...9235--nhl.html

We're talking about the 7 time all-star defenceman with 6 Stanley cup rings, right? Say what you will about him in a coaching/management role, but he was a damned good defenceman. Easily worth a high pick.

[djsFlames]

Monahan is a far more well-rounded player than Yakupov. Yaks may produce more points in his peak seasons (not by significantly much, imo) but he will continue to be a one-dimensional defensive liability through most of his career. Monahan may be a 20-25 goal / 60 point center, but like the centers on some of the recent cup champions, he'll do the job at both ends of the rink, win faceoffs, and be a leader. He has the intangibles and hockey sense for the 200 ft game that I think Yakupov will never have. Yaks will be relied upon for production, yet I don't even see him topping out at Kovalchuk's numbers. Monahan will be relied on for so much more, though. For those reasons, I think Monahan is a more valuable prospect and player. Whether that means he would be picked ahead of Yakupov would be unclear, as some top drafting teams would still seek out the guy with the best nose for the net, regardless.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

We're talking about the 7 time all-star defenceman with 6 Stanley cup rings, right? Say what you will about him in a coaching/management role, but he was a damned good defenceman. Easily worth a high pick.

Easily worth a high pick yes, but worth #2 overall? I have my doubts.

And that is something completely separate from the fact that he was not the driving force behind those Oiler teams.

Anyways, I agree with Tinordi that Yak was a much much better choice than Murray for #1 overall, so far. It can change in the future, but Murray has to pretty much go Alex Pietrangelo on everyone.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yakupov went #1 because it was a very weak draft at the top. Would have been fascinating to see where he would have gone this year.

I think Nichushkin was a better prospect than Yakupov

Any reason you feel that way? Have you watched Nichushkin play?

Anyways, i suppose its a bit of a moot point considering Nichushkin has yet to play in the NHL.

[demzor]

Hilarious that people don't think Yakupov was a 1st overall talent.

The kid destroyed the CHL in his draft year. I actually thought he was a better prospect than Hall. He's Hall with a MUCH better shot.


He won the rookie scoring race.
Last guy off the ice @ practice and trains like a pro.

I wouldn't be surprised if he hits 35+ goals this year. Though that might be hard playing with the Gagner..

[Tinordi]

What I do find funny is that if these guys were all Flames players you would be going out of your way to pick them apart and convince everyone how bad they are or what an uphill battle they have to ever succeed in the NHL. But they are Oilers and you can piss people off by defending them, so you choose to do so. I wish you put as much work into supporting our players as you do in supporting players from other teams or tearing ours down. It would make threads much more enjoyable and less frustrating.

Nice swipe.

I actually wouldn't if the Flames had drafted Mackinnon this year I'd be on the bandwagon that he's a franchise player. I've been nothing but effusive about Monahan and Poirier. I have alot of respect for alot of Flames players, I also don't uniformly love all of them or alot of the decisions this team makes. That's okay too you know.

I don't post to piss people off, I post to, you know, discuss things and challenge ideas. If you don't like being challenged or to read criticism of the team then ignore me and others. If you'd rather just wrap the Flames blanket around yourself and not hear critical opinions that's totally fine, and I mean that. It also doesn't make what I'm posting about wrong or less valuable and it doesn't make me less of a fan.

[$ven27]

I'd much rather Galchenyuk then Yakupov.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by demzor

Hilarious that people don't think Yakupov was a 1st overall talent.

The kid destroyed the CHL in his draft year. I actually thought he was a better prospect than Hall. He's Hall with a MUCH better shot.


He won the rookie scoring race.
Last guy off the ice @ practice and trains like a pro.

I wouldn't be surprised if he hits 35+ goals this year. Though that might be hard playing with the Gagner..

Destroyed the CHL? He had 31 goals and 38 assists for 69 points in 42 games. He played at a 1.6 points per game clip. Monahan was at 1.3 pts/g clip on a far worse team (31g 47a for 78 pts in 58 games for the record).

I think saying he destroyed the CHL is a bit of a reach.

[djsFlames]

Demzor is sure sporting those Oilers goggles.

Yaks may have produced well in his first season, but that's all he did. If I recall, his +/- was in the crapper, and in this case it wasn't an irrelevant stat. He drifted around at the blue line and paid little to no attention to the other end of the rink. One of those cases where the player produced, but didn't help the team win.

Kovalchuk was a prime historical example of this in his tenure with Atlanta. But like I said, I don't even see Yakupov's offense topping out near Kovy's.