Flames 2013 Draft Discussion

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

No need to go there as it will just get the mods involved. Flames Draft Watcher is a pretty good poster and I usually agree with him however sometimes he takes his user name a bit too seriously.

You are right. No need to go there. I just find it strange that one guy gets to make definitive statements based on limited viewings, but another states his opinion, and says it is just that, and gets attacked for stating his opinion. We'll know how this all plays out in a month, then how it really plays out in five years.

[Ozy_Flame]

New Era - some posters are more savvy in making veiled passive aggressive challenges than others. Take no offense; everyone will have that gripe at some point in their CP posting career. I myself have been through it too many times to count.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

I said nothing definitive. I stated it was my opinion. My opinion based on three or four viewings of his play, including the prospects game.

Well I have to seriously question your comparable then because you said both Niedemayer and Monahan have skating issues. I dunno maybe you weren't watching when Rob Niedermayer broke into the league but skating and size were his strengths with his compete level, consistency and skill being issues for him. Monahan from what I've read and seen has a much higher skill level. Niedermayer also was converted to the wing while Monahan looks likely to stay at centre.

All around a bad comparison IMO.

First you compared Monahan to McNeill (a guy with not a lot of skill) and now Niedermayer. Seems like you just don't like Monahan I guess. Neither of those players seem like good comparables for Monahan IMO.

[dammage79]

Since we've all beaten the first round to a pulp now. Anyone interested in speculating rounds 3-5? players that could be impacts down the road?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

You are right. No need to go there. I just find it strange that one guy gets to make definitive statements based on limited viewings, but another states his opinion, and says it is just that, and gets attacked for stating his opinion. We'll know how this all plays out in a month, then how it really plays out in five years.

What attack? If questioning how many times you've seen a player is an attack then you are guilty of it as well. No need to get so defensive. Your opinion on Monahan could very well turn out to be right. But based on the scouting reports and from what I've seen your comparisons of Monahan to McNeill/Niedermayer are pretty terrible.

Originally Posted by New Era

Henry, how have you seen the players in question so much to formulate such a concrete opinion?

Originally Posted by New Era

The comparison may be stupid, but just how many times have you seen Monahan to make that judgment? Seems you have access to the exact same resources everyone else has access to, so what makes your judgment better than others? I don't know how you can claim someone's opinion is wrong when all you are doing is posting your opinion based on similar information? It wouldn't be the first time some high scoring player on a crappy team ended up being a washout. Having said that, Monahan could be the greatest thing since Gretzky. He'll have to prove that after he's drafted though.

[Erick Estrada]

New Era at least he took time to explain himself to you. He still hasn't answered my question after his drive by post of my 'terrible' comparison.

[handgroen]

Cool story bro.

just in general guys,
cool story bro.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

New Era at least he took time to explain himself to you. He still hasn't answered my question after his drive by post of my 'terrible' comparison.

That's because you're on my ignore list so I don't see your posts. Anytime I see what you post and respond its because someone else quoted it. However I will go back and try to answer your question.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Neidermayer was a 2nd/3rd line center that played well at both ends of the ice and could chip in with 15-20 goals. You think Horvat hasn't been scouted to be that same type of player? Please explain why it's terrible outside of just trying to trash me.

I think Horvat has much better hockey sense and a much higher compete level than Niedermayer. Horvat looks like fairly surefire 2nd line LW/C to me based on his all around game. He has decent size, is already somewhat filled out, good skill level, high hockey sense, good two-way game.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3964

Those are Niedermayer's career stats.

I consider comparisons to Niedermayer to be somwhat insulting to most prospects unless that prospect is projected as a clear 3rd liner. Niedermayer scored more than 15 goals only twice in his career. So saying he was a 15-20 goal scorer is sugar coating it, he really averaged more in the 10-15 goal range. Niedermayer was a smooth skating, big guy who lacked top end skill and had issues applying himself to compete every night. He was good at cycling the puck and actually was a solid 3rd liner in the end paired up with Jason Wiemer.

I just think Horvat has a much higher upside than Niedermayer. I think Horvat could use a bit of work on his first couple steps but other than that I was really impressed by him at the Memorial Cup. I see him as a two-way scoring 2nd line C/LW on most teams when he's fully developed but the kind of guy who might be able to play top line on poor teams.

[bubbsy]

it is humerous that posters call other posters out on this message board for their opinion of a prospect's potential, when paid/professional scouts aren't all that accurate most of the time at doing this themselves.

A rebuttal with one's own opinion on a player seems far more reasonable than just saying another poster is wrong/misinformed...

(this is coming from a person who knows next to nothing about any of the prospects even after doing some light reading or youtubing of guys mentioned here or there).

[Street Pharmacist]

To be completely fair, Rob Niedermayer had a much higher upside than Rob Niedermayer

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I think Horvat has much better hockey sense and a much higher compete level than Niedermayer. Horvat looks like fairly surefire 2nd line LW/C to me based on his all around game. He has decent size, is already somewhat filled out, good skill level, high hockey sense, good two-way game.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3964

Those are Niedermayer's career stats.

I consider comparisons to Niedermayer to be somwhat insulting to most prospects unless that prospect is projected as a clear 3rd liner. Niedermayer scored more than 15 goals only twice in his career. So saying he was a 15-20 goal scorer is sugar coating it, he really averaged more in the 10-15 goal range. Niedermayer was a smooth skating, big guy who lacked top end skill and had issues applying himself to compete every night. He was good at cycling the puck and actually was a solid 3rd liner in the end paired up with Jason Wiemer.

I just think Horvat has a much higher upside than Niedermayer. I think Horvat could use a bit of work on his first couple steps but other than that I was really impressed by him at the Memorial Cup. I see him as a two-way scoring 2nd line C/LW on most teams when he's fully developed but the kind of guy who might be able to play top line on poor teams.

First my original comment;

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't see a problem with that and a lot of people seem to have a hard on for Horvat who projects to be a Rob Niedermayer type player. Nothing really wrong with that as you need those utility guys.

That's fair and 10-15 goals may be more accurate but I hardly see anything there as terrible as while you see Horvat with the big upside most scouts say that he's not an elite skilled player. Bottom line is that Horvat projects as a 2-way center and Neidermayer was brought up by Moon because he was a very good example of a 2-way center and remember he was projected to be a bigger producer than he became.

Time will tell but my comment to Moon's post was that a guy like Horvat fit that description of a fine 2-way forward and would be still a good pick up by the Flames.

As for you having me on ignore well that hurts my feelings. I don't recall having major differences with you although I am aware that I am not the most popular person here because I voice my opinion that may go against the grain at times. For the most part I try my best to be respectful and argue only the topic while not getting overly personal but if you feel the place is better without seeing my posts I cannot fault you for it.

[JurassicTunga12]

Originally Posted by freakinsaprikin

Not sure if this has been posted yet, Interview with Weisbrod on the up coming draft:



http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=672156



Interesting read, especially when Weisbrod talks about the depth of the draft class.

Thanks for the link.

"You obviously have the premier players at every position," Weisbrod said. "Seth Jones is a horse on the back end, and as far as goaltending goes, Zach Fucale is really strong. But I believe the strongest position is probably up front, particularly down the middle, with some really good centers all throughout the top of the draft.

Barkov, Lindholm, Monahan at the top. Good to hear.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well I have to seriously question your comparable then because you said both Niedemayer and Monahan have skating issues. I dunno maybe you weren't watching when Rob Niedermayer broke into the league but skating and size were his strengths with his compete level, consistency and skill being issues for him. Monahan from what I've read and seen has a much higher skill level. Niedermayer also was converted to the wing while Monahan looks likely to stay at centre.

All around a bad comparison IMO.

First you compared Monahan to McNeill (a guy with not a lot of skill) and now Niedermayer. Seems like you just don't like Monahan I guess. Neither of those players seem like good comparables for Monahan IMO.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Monahan. I don't like his skating. He's got a bit of a hitch in his stride and spends too much time of his heels for my liking. This could be from him having a size advantage through out his development and never needing to be an agile skater to succeed. I think players have to be top skaters to be top level players and I don't see that in Monahan. I picked guys that he reminds me of. McNeil for skill set and Neidermayer for the hype. If these comparables are so far off I'd be very interested in hearing who your comparables are. I'd also be interested to hear specifics of why you choose certain players and what Monahan does that is comparable. I won't say you're wrong, because it is our opinion and you have that right to it, but I would like to hear someone explain exactly what the players have in common, other than physical stature.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Well Niedermayer was eventually converted to LW as his face off ability was poor and his playmaking wasn't great. Niedermayer remains one of the great polarizing players in the history of this board along with guys like Drury, Phaneuf and Bouwmeester. Niedermayer was acquired for one of our best forwards (Val Bure) and there were high expectations for him to be a big skilled top two line centre. When he ended up being an overpaid 3rd line grinding winger most were bitterly disappointed. In terms of comparing him to more recent Flames you could say he was a poor man's David Moss or a slightly smarter and more skilled Blake Comeau.

So comparing any draft eligible player to him is not going to get any long term Flames fan excited. And some would consider it a straight up insult to that prospect if they actually have top two line upside.

A lot of the same things are said of Horvat that were said of Mike Richards in 2003. I tend to think he'll end up closer to a Mike Richards type than a Rob Niedermayer. Time will tell. But as I've said I don't consider Rob Niedermayer to be a good two-way centre, I consider him to be a grinding, cycling, checking line winger with low offensive abilities. So these comparisons of Horvat and Monahan to Niedermayer don't seem right to me at all.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Monahan. I don't like his skating. He's got a bit of a hitch in his stride and spends too much time of his heels for my liking. This could be from him having a size advantage through out his development and never needing to be an agile skater to succeed. I think players have to be top skaters to be top level players and I don't see that in Monahan. I picked guys that he reminds me of. McNeil for skill set and Neidermayer for the hype. If these comparables are so far off I'd be very interested in hearing who your comparables are. I'd also be interested to hear specifics of why you choose certain players and what Monahan does that is comparable. I won't say you're wrong, because it is our opinion and you have that right to it, but I would like to hear someone explain exactly what the players have in common, other than physical stature.

Frankly I haven't seen him enough to be able to make strong comparisons. McNeill isn't very skilled from what I've seen and thus the comparison seems unflattering. McNeill looks like a grinding 3rd line centre to me, maybe a slightly more skilled Jason Wiemer. Niedermayer as I posted above was a grinding 3rd line checking winger whereas Monahan is billed as a highly skilled offensive centre.

Monahan is supposed to be quite highly skilled offensively. He wouldn't have been considered a top prospect for this draft for years if he wasn't and I think if scouts were down on his offense he would've dropped drastically this year but he hasn't. Based mostly on what I've read and some of what I've seen I think Couturier seems like a reasonable comparison.

Unfortunately I did not get much of a read on him during my first watch through of the top prospects game and the YouTube clips of him aren't comprehensive enough to be able to tell anything. I'll probably watch the top prospects game again before the draft and focus more on Monahan.

Maybe you are right that he ends up as a grinding 3rd liner but that sure doesn't jive with how scouts have evaluated him so far.

[FlamesAddiction]

For the record, Niedermayer was on his way to becoming a good 1st/2nd liner before the concussion problems. He is a textbook case of how that can change some players.

[The Yen Man]

What I'm most excited about is, whomever we pick with our 3 first rounders, it pretty much instantly doubles the number Flames top level prospects. It's kind of sad at the same time as that means our pool is pretty weak, but I guess give it a couple years and the Flames should look a little more decent.

What I'm worried about is these picks getting traded. I'll be severely disappointed in Feaster and Wiesbrod if that happense, unless the trades were made to move up in the draft.

[gunnner]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

For the record, Niedermayer was on his way to becoming a good 1st/2nd liner before the concussion problems. He is a textbook case of how that can change some players.

debatable

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by gunnner

debatable

Go ahead then.