2013 PGA Tour Thread

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Major Major

This is not a stat conversation. It is basic physics. A stat in this instance would never be able to prove a correlation between changing putting styles and gaining an unfair advantage. Obviously these guys are better at putting with an anchored grip than without, or else they wouldn't be doing it. If someone broke out a stat like that, there would just be people like you claiming that they are better because they like it, not because it is unfair.

The reason to use an anchored putting grip is to steady your hands in pressure situations. How could there be a stat for that? You would not heart monitors and such.

Just because your buddies are going to give you a hard time in a few years for using an illegal grip, doesn't mean you have to get into some serious butthurt denial over something that seems pretty obvious.

Sorry bozo but I don't use a long putter. So much for your ignorant crap. Pretty simple though buddy --if the long putter was improving their stats it would be extremely clear. The sanctioning bodies would bring it out as clear evidence for the change. You should maybe think or ask before opening your obviously ignorant yap.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

The Rivers edge one is more difficult than you think as well.

#9 at River's Edge plays about 150 to the front and 170 to the back from the blue tees. The hardest part about that hole is that is the orientation relative to the prevailing winds. It always has a nasty right to left wind.

[moon]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

The very people in this thread defending the ruling. Plus them being called cheaters is commonplace.

I am missing where anyone is this thread said anything close to that and anywhere that someone has said there should be asterisks.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

Sorry bozo but I don't use a long putter. So much for your ignorant crap. Pretty simple though buddy --if the long putter was improving their stats it would be extremely clear. The sanctioning bodies would bring it out as clear evidence for the change. You should maybe think or ask before opening your obviously ignorant yap.

You keep spouting that, but always fail to come up with a methodology you could use to come up with those stats. That's because it would be impossible to have proper stats that proved anything one way or the other.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by moon

I am missing where anyone is this thread said anything close to that and anywhere that someone has said there should be asterisks.

Freely swinging the club with two hands is the essence of golf. Leveraging the club against your body, getting down on all fours and shooting it in pool cue style, strapping a long driver to your fore arm all detract from the game. If you want to play like that, no one is going to kick you off the course, but don't expect to be able to compete against people trying to play the game as it was designed.

The stroke should have never been allowed in the first place, and will now be rightfully labelled as cheating.

There ya go. Didn't take long. Not playing the game as it was designed and cheaters.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

Sorry bozo but I don't use a long putter. So much for your ignorant crap. Pretty simple though buddy --if the long putter was improving their stats it would be extremely clear. The sanctioning bodies would bring it out as clear evidence for the change. You should maybe think or ask before opening your obviously ignorant yap.

Amazing then that you are so bent on clinging to your argument. It's been said and resaid... stats don't tell the story here. If you are unaware of how stats can be bent to mean different things and don't indicate concrete truths in many cases, then that is fine. However, it makes it pretty clear that you don't understand the issue, and certainly does not make those who do "bozos".

[Clever_Iggy]

St. Pats - why are you entrenched in your position?

Assuming you're not a professional golfer, there's only a handful of reasons that I can think of - (1) you just bought a long putter and now are worried that you'll be heckled at men's night after 2016, (2) your favorite player/brother is Adam Scott who couldn't putt until he went to the long putter and now his success could be hampered or (3) there isn't a beavy of stats available to decipher one way or another on the issue and you are a stats professor.

For me, Tiger says long putters should be banned and Tiger is awesome. Therefore, I think they should be banned.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by moon

I am missing where anyone is this thread said anything close to that and anywhere that someone has said there should be asterisks.

If we let this thing continue for three or four more years the guys that are still using the long putter are still going to be winning golf tournaments and then do we put a asterisk, is there a stigma attached to that.

That's a quote from Brandt Snedeker wondering if there will be a stigma attached to the winners till now and up to 2016 and wondering about the asterisk. You know all those who think it's cheating and not according to the fundamentals of the game have already placed a mythical asterisk.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

If we let this thing continue for three or four more years the guys that are still using the long putter are still going to be winning golf tournaments and then do we put a asterisk, is there a stigma attached to that.

That's a quote from Brandt Snedeker wondering if there will be a stigma attached to the winners till now and up to 2016 and wondering about the asterisk. You know all those who think it's cheating and not according to the fundamentals of the game have already placed a mythical asterisk.

So what? No one is taking championships away from these guys. If their feelings are hurt by a few people suggesting that what they are doing is about to be banned, then I guess they can start a support group for each other.

It is really not that big of a conundrum.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

St. Pats - why are you entrenched in your position?

Assuming you're not a professional golfer, there's only a handful of reasons that I can think of - (1) you just bought a long putter and now are worried that you'll be heckled at men's night after 2016, (2) your favorite player/brother is Adam Scott who couldn't putt until he went to the long putter and now his success could be hampered or (3) there isn't a beavy of stats available to decipher one way or another on the issue and you are a stats professor.

For me, Tiger says long putters should be banned and Tiger is awesome. Therefore, I think they should be banned.

I golf like two or three times a year with regular clubs and couldn't really care less except I just think it's horsemanure. Whenever in anything I hear it's not the way we used to do things therefore it ain't right I think it's bogus. Sure if it can be shown that use of any particular club or ball or whatever gives anyone who uses its an advantage then ban it. But just some rubbish about the fundamentals of the game being breached. For decades on end and now it's suddenly a problem --- Hmm think maybe Tiger is against it for some reason other than fundamentals --like having not won a major in eons perhaps.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

I golf like two or three times a year with regular clubs and couldn't really care less except I just think it's horsemanure. Whenever in anything I hear it's not the way we used to do things therefore it ain't right I think it's bogus. Sure if it can be shown that use of any particular club or ball or whatever gives anyone who uses its an advantage then ban it. But just some rubbish about the fundamentals of the game being breached. For decades on end and now it's suddenly a problem --- Hmm think maybe Tiger is against it for some reason other than fundamentals --like having not won a major in eons perhaps.

The Tiger comment was with my tongue firmly in my cheek.

I guess I still don't get why you care then. If Leggett (90% of players) and several other players agree that it is not consistent with the rules of the sport, and the only ones coming out in support are the users (Adam Scott's career hangs on this decision, IMO) and those that worry about the growth of the game (they say its easier to putt, which draws more young players who can see improvement, etc), I think banning them is the right decision. But I'm just some guy, so what do I know.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

The Tiger comment was with my tongue firmly in my cheek.

I guess I still don't get why you care then. If Leggett (90% of players) and several other players agree that it is not consistent with the rules of the sport, and the only ones coming out in support are the users (Adam Scott's career hangs on this decision, IMO) and those that worry about the growth of the game (they say its easier to putt, which draws more young players who can see improvement, etc), I think banning them is the right decision. But I'm just some guy, so what do I know.

Leggett's comments are hearsay. Here interestingly is who has actually come out against it.

As the Professional Golfers’ Association of America and the United States PGA Tour have argued, after all, there is no statistical evidence to back up the claim that the controversial technique actually helps on the greens; otherwise, everybody would be employing it. Moreover, the move makes the game, already hard enough to the point of alienating potential patrons, even more inaccessible.

The PGA tour and the PGA are against it. This ain't a win for golf.

As for everybody else, there is the hope that even more pressing issues -- the unchecked advances in equipment, the elephant-walk pace of play, and the prohibitive costs of playing, among others -- will finally be addressed.

Another quote from the same article sums up part of how I feel as well.

[moon]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

Freely swinging the club with two hands is the essence of golf. Leveraging the club against your body, getting down on all fours and shooting it in pool cue style, strapping a long driver to your fore arm all detract from the game. If you want to play like that, no one is going to kick you off the course, but don't expect to be able to compete against people trying to play the game as it was designed.

The stroke should have never been allowed in the first place, and will now be rightfully labelled as cheating.

There ya go. Didn't take long. Not playing the game as it was designed and cheaters.

Not sure what this has to do with anything I posted. Perhaps you quoted me by mistake?

[moon]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

If we let this thing continue for three or four more years the guys that are still using the long putter are still going to be winning golf tournaments and then do we put a asterisk, is there a stigma attached to that.

That's a quote from Brandt Snedeker wondering if there will be a stigma attached to the winners till now and up to 2016 and wondering about the asterisk. You know all those who think it's cheating and not according to the fundamentals of the game have already placed a mythical asterisk.

He is wondering if they will put an asterik. It is one guy stating that and a long ways from what you said.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by moon

He is wondering if they will put an asterik. It is one guy stating that and a long ways from what you said.

Yep it's one quote of many you can find out there and from a prominent tour player at that. I put it more colorfully but, of course, the asterik thing is going to be out there immediately. Especially when the rule isn't in effect until 2016. I can just imagine the next guy who wins a major with the belly putter what the comments will be. And for what gain? Some nebulous keeping of tradition. So why do they allow drivers that whack the ball farther than many courses were setup to handle--certainly not in keeping with the traditions of the game. Or balls that fly higher, stop faster etc. etc. These have caused entire redo's of courses. What the heck has the long putter done? Certainly hasn't affected the game any except seemingly with it's popularity made the game more fun for large numbers of players.

The only thing I hear in response is well uh it's not really a swing ya know and it's easier and cheating. Of course, called on it, they can offer zero proof.

[moon]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

The only thing I hear in response is well uh it's not really a swing ya know and it's easier and cheating. Of course, called on it, they can offer zero proof.

Well if it doesn't help the guys using it or give them an advantage then I guess it doesn't matter if they can't use it so no harm in banning it.

And so far reading in this thread the 0 proof thing seems to go with the other side of the argument more so than banning it.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

So why do they allow drivers that whack the ball farther than many courses were setup to handle--certainly not in keeping with the traditions of the game.

They took major steps to limit driving distance. It's pretty much a non-issue now.

The croquet style of putting was banned in the late 60's. This is no different than that.

Golf has and will continue to evolve their rules package in order to preserve the traditions of the game.

Spoiler!

[St. Pats]

So they will be then putting courses back to the way they were designed and banning all drivers that can hit the ball over the distance they could back then? Are they going to reverse the driver/pitching wedge golf that is now the norm or go back to tradition.

Are they going to tell the Golf equipment companies that it's all over. No more new clubs?

This is the weakest argument of all. The game is nothing like what it was.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

This is the weakest argument of all. The game is nothing like what it was.

The argument is that the rules of golf have continued to evolve along with and in response to technological and/or playing innovations is well established.

COR in drivers, the groove rule and both putting focus rules are all examples of this.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

The argument is that the rules of golf have continued to evolve along with and in response to technological and/or playing innovations is well established.

COR in drivers, the groove rule and both putting focus rules are all examples of this.

They haven't evolved whatsover. They have torn entire golf courses apart foolishly to accomodate golf equipment companies. Nothing to do with tradition which they tossed in the bucket long ago. Every once in awhile they put up a token show and that's with pieces of equipment that actually have been shown to give an actual advantage. Unlike long putters.

Their traditions have been obliterated. Probably one of the reasons for this lame move. Lets them appear as if they are actually doing something.