Star Trek 2 (XII) (Now with spoilers)

[getbak]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Is it possible it's another one of Khan's family, an engineer perhaps? They never explicitly said Khan's first name in Into the Darkness (well old Spock did, but he wasn't really involved) There's the age difference too when you think about it.

Assuming it's the same character as the one played by Montalban in the OS, Khan is his first name. His full name is Khan Noonien Singh.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Khan himself explained it pretty well...

Marcus found the Botany Bay and woke up Khan only. He coerced him into helping design/build the Vengeance and it's weapons by withholding his crew from them and threatening to kill them. Khan eventually attempted to smuggle them out in those special photon torpedoes, but he was discovered and was forced to flee. Assuming that Marcus had murdered his crew, he began his vengeance on Starfleet, which is where the movie begins.

Thanks. I'm sure he explained this all while in the brig. But I guess I was just too occupied staring into his dreamy eyes...

[octothorp]

My confusion is what Marcus was planning with the torpedoes. He knew that the fuel chambers had been replaced by cryogenic tubes, right? So what did he think was going to happen if they were launched? They'd just sort of splutter and then drift haphazardly toward their destination? They were long-range torpedoes, so without knowing the distance from the neutral zone to the planet they were attacking, I'm guessing you can't just launch them without their fuel tanks and count on them to hit their targets.

Or was Marcus unaware of what they contained? I thought when he arrived in the Vengeance he made it sound like he knew that the torpedoes contained the rest of Khan's crew.

edit: also, in reference, to my earlier prediction about what this movie would contain...

Originally Posted by octothorp

Come on, tribbles! You can't get darker than tribbles!

...Nailed it!

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by KTrain

No, this was better than Wrath of Khan.

But then again, I've always enjoyed Undiscovered Country more than Wrath. Khan has always looked ridiculous to me. But that's a product of the 60s and 80s costumes/hair.

I enjoyed this movie for what it was and understand that you can't make an actual Star Trek movie in the day of overblown 200 million dollar movies with requisite big dumb endings.

That being said, this movie is a pretty looking echo of wrath of khan. The biggest reason for Wrath being better is that there is actually a reason for the villain to feel wrath towards the film's hero.


sPOILERS




Kirk and Khan are incidental characters to each other in this movie; Khan has no beef with Kirk here, and if anything, Kirk has more motivation for 'wrath' after what happens in the briefing with Robocop.

Again, I like this movie for what it is. Wrath of Khan is ten times the film, made for less than 10 percent of this film's budget.

This may be a bit off topic, but is anyone else just done with CGI? It's to the point now where there's absolutely nothing impressive about it. Practical stunt work, models, miniatures, all still look vastly more interesting because there's more artistry behind it. You don't get to see a truck flip over and explode in real life, so when you saw it in Commando in the 80s, there was more of a reason for you to be excited or interested in it. The space battles in Star Wars are amazing in no small part because of the intricate model work and camera action required to bring those scenes to life.

Even to use Star Trek as an example. Watch the Mutara Nebula/Genesis countdown scenes in wrath of khan, and even Stealing the Enterprise from Search for Spock. In all of these scenes, nothing happens with any speed whatsoever, yet the tension in all three exceeds anything a few fast edits and a non-existent CGI enterprise could muster. Ask yourself why this is. And then ask why Hollywood insists on doing business the way they do.

Someone needs to tell them that if they make movies with good stories and visuals that supplement the story rather than star in the movie more than the actors, you can make movies for a fraction of the cost and still make your money. As I mentioned, wrath of khan was made for about 12 million and took in 79 million actual dollars. Whatever into darkness makes, it will not be that level of return on investment.

So figure your #### out, Hollywood.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Marcus found/de-iced Khan specifically to enlist him to help build the Vengeance. Marcus believes war with the Klingons is inevitable. He needed Khan to build the ship/militarize starfleet. Then Marcus discarded him and covered the tracks of what he had done. What exactly Marcus promised, I'm not sure, but likely the return of his crew.

In revenge, Khan blew up the starfleet archives, where the alteration of the databanks happened.

Something like that.

Actually he blew up the archives so there would be an officers meeting in which he would get a shot at Marcus and take out his vengeance. Kirk explained that when he brought it up. That was the real purpose of bombing the archives.

The plot was sort of contrived and convoluted, but it still makes sense if you lay it out for the most part.

Originally Posted by octothorp

My confusion is what Marcus was planning with the torpedoes. He knew that the fuel chambers had been replaced by cryogenic tubes, right? So what did he think was going to happen if they were launched? They'd just sort of splutter and then drift haphazardly toward their destination? They were long-range torpedoes, so without knowing the distance from the neutral zone to the planet they were attacking, I'm guessing you can't just launch them without their fuel tanks and count on them to hit their targets.

Or was Marcus unaware of what they contained? I thought when he arrived in the Vengeance he made it sound like he knew that the torpedoes contained the rest of Khan's crew.

Pretty sure it's the second one, as Khan did say he secretly was able to hide them in there, but wasn't able to smuggle them out in the end. You would think Marcus would have destroyed the people inside them beforehand if he had known they were inside. As to your first point while I think they'd still hit their target, actually hitting Kronos and doing much damage wasn't actually a necessity. They were launching them at an unoccupied part of the planet anyway. But just launching them in general at the planet would have been perceived as an act of war by the Klingon's, and probably started the war he desired in the end.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Actually he blew up the archives so there would be an officers meeting in which he would get a shot at Marcus and take out his vengeance. Kirk explained that when he brought it up. That was the real purpose of bombing the archives.

The plot was sort of contrived and convoluted, but it still makes sense if you lay it out for the most part.

The reason I think there's more to it than that has to do with a draft script I read/skimmed. I actually haven't seen the movie yet.

And yeah, its pretty convoluted no matter what the reasons were.

[trackercowe]

At least it wasn't as outright silly as some of the scenes in Prometheus were. I am worried that they might hand off direction to Damon Lindelof eventually. Abrams will likely only do one more movie, since Star Wars will probably take up most of his time.

If Lindelof takes over we could be in trouble.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by octothorp

My confusion is what Marcus was planning with the torpedoes. He knew that the fuel chambers had been replaced by cryogenic tubes, right? So what did he think was going to happen if they were launched? They'd just sort of splutter and then drift haphazardly toward their destination? They were long-range torpedoes, so without knowing the distance from the neutral zone to the planet they were attacking, I'm guessing you can't just launch them without their fuel tanks and count on them to hit their targets.

Or was Marcus unaware of what they contained? I thought when he arrived in the Vengeance he made it sound like he knew that the torpedoes contained the rest of Khan's crew.

I think Marcus' motivation was to cause an incident to provoke the Klingons, whilst at the same time killing off Khan's crew by having Kirk torpedo them at Khan, like he was supposed to do instead of taking him prisoner.

Khan seemed unclear initially about the torpedoes when he asked Kirk how many there were and then promptly surrendered when he learned it was 72. It seems like he was aware, however, when being questioned aboard the Enterprise.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I enjoyed this movie for what it was and understand that you can't make an actual Star Trek movie in the day of overblown 200 million dollar movies with requisite big dumb endings.

That being said, this movie is a pretty looking echo of wrath of khan. The biggest reason for Wrath being better is that there is actually a reason for the villain to feel wrath towards the film's hero.


sPOILERS




Kirk and Khan are incidental characters to each other in this movie; Khan has no beef with Kirk here, and if anything, Kirk has more motivation for 'wrath' after what happens in the briefing with Robocop.

Again, I like this movie for what it is. Wrath of Khan is ten times the film, made for less than 10 percent of this film's budget.

This may be a bit off topic, but is anyone else just done with CGI? It's to the point now where there's absolutely nothing impressive about it. Practical stunt work, models, miniatures, all still look vastly more interesting because there's more artistry behind it. You don't get to see a truck flip over and explode in real life, so when you saw it in Commando in the 80s, there was more of a reason for you to be excited or interested in it. The space battles in Star Wars are amazing in no small part because of the intricate model work and camera action required to bring those scenes to life.

Even to use Star Trek as an example. Watch the Mutara Nebula/Genesis countdown scenes in wrath of khan, and even Stealing the Enterprise from Search for Spock. In all of these scenes, nothing happens with any speed whatsoever, yet the tension in all three exceeds anything a few fast edits and a non-existent CGI enterprise could muster. Ask yourself why this is. And then ask why Hollywood insists on doing business the way they do.

Someone needs to tell them that if they make movies with good stories and visuals that supplement the story rather than star in the movie more than the actors, you can make movies for a fraction of the cost and still make your money. As I mentioned, wrath of khan was made for about 12 million and took in 79 million actual dollars. Whatever into darkness makes, it will not be that level of return on investment.

So figure your #### out, Hollywood.

But if you look at it This is more pre-space seed then wrath of Khan.

At the end of Space Seed Khan didn't have a hatred for Kirk, and Kirk didn't for Khan.

He gave Khan a planet and a chance to build a civilization, and Khan had a wife and was eager to build it.

Capt. Kirk: [offering Khan a hostile planet to inhabit] Those men went on to tame a continent, Mr. Khan. Can you tame a world?
Khan Noonien Singh: Have you ever read Milton, Captain?
Capt. Kirk: Yes. I understand.

[Khan is escorted out by Security]
Scott: It's a shame for a good Scotsman to admit it, but I'm not up on Milton
Capt. Kirk: The statement Lucifer made when he fell into the pit: "It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."
Mr. Spock: It would be interesting, Captain, to return to that world in 100 years and learn what crop had sprung from the seed you planted today.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Is it possible it's another one of Khan's family, an engineer perhaps? They never explicitly said Khan's first name in Into the Darkness (well old Spock did, but he wasn't really involved) There's the age difference too when you think about it.

There was only one Khan, remember they were genetically engineered supermen

Capt. Kirk: [looking at a library picture of Kahn on viewscreen] Name: Khan Noonien Singh.
Mr. Spock: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world, from Asia through the Middle East.
Dr. McCoy: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
Scott: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
Capt. Kirk: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
Mr. Spock: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is...
Capt. Kirk: Mr. Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
Scott: There were no massacres under is rule.
Mr. Spock: And as little freedom.
Dr. McCoy: No wars until he was attacked.
Mr. Spock: Gentlemen...
[All but Spock laugh]
Capt. Kirk: Mr. Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
Mr. Spock: Illogical.
Capt. Kirk: Totally.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Pretty sure it's the second one, as Khan did say he secretly was able to hide them in there, but wasn't able to smuggle them out in the end. You would think Marcus would have destroyed the people inside them beforehand if he had known they were inside.

Okay, but if Khan wasn't caught red-handed, then why would he just assume that Marcus had killed the rest of his crew? Given what a master tactician he was, wouldn't he have attempted to find out whether his torpedo smuggling system was still intact? The whole vendetta hinges on an apparent misunderstanding, yet it's a misunderstanding that's never explained to us. I still loved this movie despite these issues, but it's walking a thin line.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

At least it wasn't as outright silly as some of the scenes in Prometheus were.

I might as well preface this with the admission that I think Star Trek in general is thoroughly mediocre ham, but I saw a lot of silly scenes. For example:

***SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER***

Kirk fixes the warp core by kicking the snot out of it. Also, no explanation is ever given for how it gets out of alignment in the first place, considering sabotage would imply some kind of saboteur.

The aforementioned two minute transit time from the neutral zone back to Earth. And then they are knocked out of warp, apparently just beside the Moon, yet somehow nobody thinks to contact Starfleet, even using a communicator, which clearly work from orbit since they've been shown to do so many many many times before? Not to mention, if they're going at warp gajillion or whatever, they must have been about to go right thru Earth in the next picosecond, so it's a good thing they were hit and fell back into normal space before they destroyed the Earth in a massive collision.

Khan managing to put 70 (!) odd bodies into torpedoes undetected. The bodies, mind you, that were the Admiral's hold over him, and presumably would be hidden somewhere safe, not left lying around in Khan's workshop or whatever.

The dreadnought falling thru the atmosphere and landing right in San Francisco - ridiculous on three levels, as 1) it would burn up long before landing 2) it wouldn't fall at 5 km/h in Michael Bay-approved slo-mo 3) out of the entire surface of the Earth, it just happens to hit practically on top of Star Fleet headquarters in San Francisco.

The officers on the bridge of the dreadnought get to listen to the Admiral outlining his evil and illegal plot, and just carry on as normal. "No one will ever know what really happened - well, except for all these dudes on the bridge with me! Mwhahahaha!"

Scotty slides his shuttle into a group of other shuttles supplying a top-secret military base, and is not challenged nor detected as he sneaks on board the highly illegal starship being built there. If there's one thing I know about top-secret military bases, it's that security is lax and you can pretty well casually drop in, no questions asked. Further, why would he sneak on board at all, other than to set up a deus ex machina later?

McCoy just randomly decides to inject a dead tribble with Khan's blood to see what will happen. "Hmm, I have some blood... and this dead tribble. I've always wanted to be a mad scientist..."

***SPOILERS OVER***

And that's just off the top of my head, without having to think about it. There's bending logic a bit to tell a better story, and then there's just doing whatever you want, whenever you want to. The movie was entertaining, sure, but it was apparently written by crack-addled toddlers with full access to an array of magic crayons.

[trackercowe]

^ Some of those are problems, specifically the first two. I don't know why the issue with the Saboteur was never explained. Although the damage Kirk "fixed" by kicking the core happened when Khan shot at the ship, as Chekov fixed it prior to leaving their confrontation with Marcus.

As to your third point, Khan did command the ship to aim for San Francisco, so that's the reason why it crashed there. Also Khan was responsible for the ships construction, so maybe he knows how to build a ship that can sustain destruction from the atmosphere.

Also those weren't officers on Marcus' ship, those were just private contractors and mercenaries. Scotty said as much when he ran into one in the escape hatch (which was a poorly written exchange mind you). So they likely knew of Marcus' plan, and were in on it all along. Scotty was also on a ship that looked the exact same as the others around him, so he was able to sneak in that way. There were many similar shuttles around him, and I doubt they had the time to check them all individually in time to go after Khan.

As for your last point, yeah that's quite contrived, but I am sure McCoy did a bunch of tests, not just the one to see how it would react with a dead tribble. Once again it was such a damn obvious scene they practically beat its value over our heads, but I'm glad they didn't end up bothering with Kirk's resurrection in the next movie.

[photon]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Kirk and Khan are incidental characters to each other in this movie; Khan has no beef with Kirk here, and if anything, Kirk has more motivation for 'wrath' after what happens in the briefing with Robocop.

Exactly, I've got no reason to feel invested in the conflict between them. It's like taking two random guys off the street and making them fight, or taking Spock and Kirk and making them fight. One has deep context and meaning and drama and tension, the other is just a spectacle.

And nowadays in sci-fi, meaning and drama and tension and characters are hard to come by.

I get what they tried to do with Kirk, but even that we're just beaten over the head with. It's like they're not showing me the character development, they're just telling me what it is.

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

In all of these scenes, nothing happens with any speed whatsoever, yet the tension in all three exceeds anything a few fast edits and a non-existent CGI enterprise could muster. Ask yourself why this is. And then ask why Hollywood insists on doing business the way they do.

Great creativity often comes out of constraints and boundaries, rather than a blank slate.

Ask why Pixar can pull off more emotion between Wall-E and Eve. They understand a blank slate with unbridled imagination does not equal creativity, listen to the commentaries on Pixar films and you'll hear them talking about not what they created, but what they cut to get down to the essence of the story. Good authors talk all the time about tearing out parts they love because they don't serve the story.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by getbak

His full name is Khan Noonien Singh.

Wasn't Data's creator/maker/father named Noonien Singh, too?

[Caged Great]

Dr. Noonien Soong actually. pretty similar but no.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But if you look at it This is more pre-space seed then wrath of Khan.

At the end of Space Seed Khan didn't have a hatred for Kirk, and Kirk didn't for Khan.

He gave Khan a planet and a chance to build a civilization, and Khan had a wife and was eager to build it.

Exactly, it's pre space seed. So why then go and attempt to make what is essentially a Wrath of Khan remake on speed? Of all the iconic moments in cinema that are exploited in this film, not one of them feels earned.

Also, remember that scene in Wrath of Khan when Kirk beams over to the Reliant and gets into a fist fight with Khan? It doesn't exist because the story was strong enough to not have a cliched punchout with the bad guy.

Damn good summer blockbuster. Pale immitation star trek. Though if star wars is done like this, we should be in for a show.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Dr. Noonien Soong actually. pretty similar but no.

Dang. Close, but it's been some time since I watched the shows.

[Tinordi]

This is the book at Abrams and Lindelof though. Lots of style and engagement but very little substance. Great while you're watching it, utterly forgettable the moment you leave the cinema.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

^ Some of those are problems, specifically the first two. I don't know why the issue with the Saboteur was never explained. Although the damage Kirk "fixed" by kicking the core happened when Khan shot at the ship, as Chekov fixed it prior to leaving their confrontation with Marcus.

How does hitting the ship move the warp cores out of alignment? That sounds like a really crap design issue to me, especially when the "fix" is having someone kill themselves kicking it back into place. "Oh man, someone shot at us again! Who is on warp core duty today - Ensign Whirly? Haha, sucks to be you, dude!"

Not only that, but the Federation can make a suit which protects the wearer from being right inside a volcano, but a simple radiation suit is apparently completely beyond them.

Originally Posted by trackercowe

As to your third point, Khan did command the ship to aim for San Francisco, so that's the reason why it crashed there. Also Khan was responsible for the ships construction, so maybe he knows how to build a ship that can sustain destruction from the atmosphere.

Aimed it how? I didn't hear him command that, but if the starship had working drives, why is it falling (in violation of the laws of physics, mind you - if it's just beside the Moon, it's going to fall there, not on the Earth, and the Moon is practically covering the sky in some of the battle shots) at all? It's not a plane, it doesn't have control surfaces to maneuver in atmosphere. And why would you engineer a starship to be able to survive atmospheric re-entry unpowered, even if you could?

That whole sequence is really, really dumb. They are tens of thousands of kilometres from Earth (they say exactly how far, but I misremember), yet in a few minutes the dreadnought hits the Earth, meaning it must be travelling at hundreds of thousands of km/h to get there that fast. But wait! We see it fall and hit, and it's going maybe a few km/h. Then it smashes the city, and there is mass destruction... But wait! A few blocks away, it's normality, with traffic merrily chugging along and people ambling along, oblivious.

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Also those weren't officers on Marcus' ship, those were just private contractors and mercenaries. Scotty said as much when he ran into one in the escape hatch (which was a poorly written exchange mind you). So they likely knew of Marcus' plan, and were in on it all along.

That makes it even worse - so, presumably, this was a private project of Marcus'? That ship was, what, 8 times as big as Enterprise (2X as long, high, and wide) and he just used his expense account to build it and crew it? Where did he get the money, the materials, the construction crews? Or did Khan build the whole thing himself out of Lego blocks?

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Scotty was also on a ship that looked the exact same as the others around him, so he was able to sneak in that way. There were many similar shuttles around him, and I doubt they had the time to check them all individually in time to go after Khan.

150 years from now they won't have IFF on their starships? Or the ability to count? "Hmm, we ordered 9 shuttles of supplies, but we got 10. Well, I dunno, it's probably ok. Just park it over there by the crates marked "Munitions" and hope it's not a trojan horse here to blow up this multi-trillion credit starship."

Further, how did he even get close to the starship yard in the first place - they don't have pickets out defending it at all? What if the Klingons start a war before it's ready - I guess they just come in all lah-de-dah, dancing and singing and pirouetting, then blow up the secret weapon, after which Admiral Marcus look like a clown running a circus?

And before you say "Well it's hidden and secret!", the Federation could find ONE GUY'S specific location on the Klingon homeworld (which was also stupid, because why didn't they use that ability when he was on the run after the bombing and still on Earth), the Klingons should be able to find a huge starship. One would presume they have spies, drones, really big telescopes, tracking dogs, access to Wikipedia, and other sources of intel sufficient to the task.

Originally Posted by trackercowe

As for your last point, yeah that's quite contrived, but I am sure McCoy did a bunch of tests, not just the one to see how it would react with a dead tribble. Once again it was such a damn obvious scene they practically beat its value over our heads, but I'm glad they didn't end up bothering with Kirk's resurrection in the next movie.

It's incredibly dumb because another 15 seconds of exposition would have (sort of) fixed it. "Hmm, Jim, in studying this blood sample I took of Khan's, I noticed that it seems to have miraculous properties of regeneration and cell regrowth. I'm thinking of injecting this tribble I caught Crewman Morty sodomizing to death - it's possible it might even be able to return the dead to life!" "Good idea, Bones! And I hope you gave Morty a stern lecture!"