The Drive for 30th

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by Joborule

If it's so flawed, why does EVERY major North American league with a draft do it?

You're disregarding that they teams above them will continue to get better quality players. So not only are you having trouble attracting top tier free agents (who would want to sign for a bottom team that can't improve?), but you can't trade for top tier talent because they have no assets that a team with good assets would be interested in exchanging for. You actually have put them in a black hole.

You say a good GM would be able to get them out of the mess, but that's a lot to ask when the teams above you are potentially getting better quality players into their systems every year, and have every type of advantage over you in attracting players or trading for players. How the heck are they suppose to sign free agents, since the player would actually want to play there? How the heck are they suppose to trade for impact players? They'll have to have impact prospects themselves, or great quality picks. Except the team that would trade with them, probably have better items in both of those categories. And now they can't even get the top tier prospects to help propel their team forward. How the hell are they going to get better? Explain that. Because if you can figure out a technique to pull a team from the basement to a competitor under this system, then perhaps it can be viable. (But stupid)

I don't know how you don't see how idiotic it preventing bad teams from getting the first picks is. There's a reason why every league has given favour to those teams in drafts. It's because it makes complete sense, and is most fair.

The exact same argument could be made for a team finishing 17-20+ every year.

"How the heck are they suppose to sign free agents, since the player would actually want to play there?" Players seem to either want to go to a contender, or a team that is at the bottom of the standings where they feel they have a chance to play (Schultz). Being stuck in the middle is tough unless you are playing in Manhattan.

"How the heck are they suppose to trade for impact players?" Even worse, you have a team with limited assets because you aren't getting low enough in the draft to acquire blue-chip prospects. You can always sell off your future picks, but this just further reduces your prospect pool.

"How the hell are they going to get better?" Again, in this scenario, you typically have to get worse to get better, which appears to be the de facto standard when stuck this position.

I am simply conceptualizing an option where ALL teams compete down the stretch. Crazy heretic that I am.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I have mixed feelings about all this - certainly the higher the pick the better it would be for the Flames. But I look up the highway and I do wonder what stinks up there - why can't they even take a step in the right direction. How much does a culture of losing start to become part of who you are as a team and as an organization?

I desperately want the Flames to be in the top 4 - but failing that Lindholm or Monnahan at 5/6 isn't bad either. When you get to 7th that's where you now have to make a decision between a guy with crazy upside/risk (Russian dude) or a guy who perhaps has less upside.

Again the guy I have no view on and I am completely ignorant about is Nurse. I may be completely looking over him as part of that 2nd tier with guys like Lindholm.

The problem with the Oilers is that management has failed to surround the young players with quality depth. After all these years of drafting early they still have on of the worst defensive groups in the NHL. The Hawks and Penguins for example drafted quality players in round other than the first round and made astute depth trades/signings of character players. I feel too many people focus on the Oilers and not the other teams like the Kings, Ducks, Penguins, Hawks, even Capitals that have done it the right way. The Calgary Flames are not the Edmonton Oilers and picking top 3 is not going to ensure that the Flames meet their fate. There are more examples of teams constructively using the draft than ones that fail at it like the Oilers or Bluejackets.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The problem with the Oilers is that management has failed to surround the young players with quality depth. After all these years of drafting early they still have on of the worst defensive groups in the NHL. The Hawks and Penguins for example drafted quality players in round other than the first round and made astute depth trades/signings of character players. I feel too many people focus on the Oilers and not the other teams like the Kings, Ducks, Penguins, Hawks, even Capitals that have done it the right way. The Calgary Flames are not the Edmonton Oilers and picking top 3 is not going to ensure that the Flames meet their fate. There are more examples of teams constructively using the draft than ones that fail at it like the Oilers or Bluejackets.

Yeah it's like anything - the strategy has to be well executed and good decisions made regardless of what that strategy is.

I just have a hard time faulting a team for winning.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by moon

Sure but if you are the Panthers or Lightning and your team just sucked for the past two years it is a lot easier to sell your fans on good times coming based on Stamkos or Hubredeau coming in rather than hey we got the 15th best guy in the draft that may or may not play for our team in 3 years.

Sure the GM has to do more than hope for the 1st pick but if you give the better teams the best players and the bad teams are already behind the 8 ball with a lack of talent as it is what are the chances that they are going to get better and pass those better teams?

Edmonton clearly should be behind the 8 ball by any stretch, they can spend to the cap, they had mad assets that they could have moved to balance their team over the last three or four years.

you can argue that selling Florida fans on good times ahead is irrelevant since its one of the black hole franchises in terms of fan support.

By basically telling your fans that your not putting the best possible product on the ice year after year, your conning your own fans into paying top dollar for a intentionally sub standard product.

Edmonton fans for example have been ripped off.

I would almost be fine if a GM said,we're going to be terrible while we rebuild, the product is going to be substandard, we're cutting season ticket rates by 25% or whatever.

Integrity issue solved.

I take a bit of pride in knowing that our team is not lying down and dying over the last little bit. That the young players and vets that are left are fighting incredibly hard game in and game out for their jobs and for the franchise.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yeah it's like anything - the strategy has to be well executed and good decisions made regardless of what that strategy is.

I just have a hard time faulting a team for winning.

I don't fault the players for trying. It's just sucks in the big picture. Just to go back on the Oilers would anyone really be surprised if they use their first overall pick on a forward even though there looks to be a couple of very good defenseman in the range they are picking? That's why they are where they are.

[puds]

Why not start a goalie like Irving?

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

What games? I see the Flames beating Nashville but that is it. The other four teams are Anaheim, Minnesota, St. Louis, and Chicago.

Nashville's in total tank-mode, so I expect them to win that one. Chicago will probably be resting some of their big guns in a meaningless game to end the season, so a win there wouldn't be a huge shock. I can see them beating one of St. Louis or Minnesota, but admittedly, that's more just a gut feel than anything else. The Anaheim game is about as close to a guaranteed loss as you can get. Haha.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

What games? I see the Flames beating Nashville but that is it. The other four teams are Anaheim, Minnesota, St. Louis, and Chicago.

We really need to lose that Nashville game now.

Its time to call up Irving to finish out the season!!!! We need to give him a long hard look to determine whether he is worth keeping in the organization.

Huge OOT night for us. As I posted previously we need some help both with our pick and with the Blues pick:

NYI vs TOR
Fla vs NYR
TBL vs Mon
WAS vs OTT (Doesn't matter who wins but we want it to go to OT)
NJD vs Phi
CAR vs Win
Pho vs StL
Min vs SJS
CBJ vs LAK

We want FLA, CAR, PHI, TBL to win for obvious reasons.
We want the Islanders, Capitals and Senators to gain points and jump over the Blues in the overall standings.
We want the Blues to lose and the Wild to win in order to keep the Blues in the 7-8 seed.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't fault the players for trying. It's just sucks in the big picture. Just to go back on the Oilers would anyone really be surprised if they use their first overall pick on a forward even though there looks to be a couple of very good defenseman in the range they are picking? That's why they are where they are.

Totally agree with this. I don't blame the players or coaching staff for the wins. I just blame our crappy luck that we're all of a sudden winning these games, and all the other bottom feeding teams can't seem to win if their lives depended on it.

I must say though, watching a Flames game cheering for the other side is weird. All of a sudden, the Flames defense, offense, and goaltending look strong compared to the competition. Now I'm noticing the other teams running around in their own zone or not scoring when they should be.

[flamesaresmokin]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Totally agree with this. I don't blame the players or coaching staff for the wins. I just blame our crappy luck that we're all of a sudden winning these games, and all the other bottom feeding teams can't seem to win if their lives depended on it.

I must say though, watching a Flames game cheering for the other side is weird. All of a sudden, the Flames defense, offense, and goaltending look strong compared to the competition. Now I'm noticing the other teams running around in their own zone or not scoring when they should be.

I wouldn't call it crappy luck. The Flames have essentially been doing this for the last three years. Its really going to suck if they play their way out of real lottery contention after all of this.

[_Q_]

Man I seriously think some of you guys are overlooking the fact that most of the teams we're battling for last place also have to play each other. So there are some guaranteed wins coming up for those teams regardless.

[MissTeeks]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Man I seriously think some of you guys are overlooking the fact that most of the teams we're battling for last place also have to play each other. So there are some guaranteed wins coming up for those teams regardless.

Come on three point games!

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Totally agree with this. I don't blame the players or coaching staff for the wins. I just blame our crappy luck that we're all of a sudden winning these games, and all the other bottom feeding teams can't seem to win if their lives depended on it.

I must say though, watching a Flames game cheering for the other side is weird. All of a sudden, the Flames defense, offense, and goaltending look strong compared to the competition. Now I'm noticing the other teams running around in their own zone or not scoring when they should be.

I said in the game thread that since the Iginla and Bouwmeester were traded the Flames have played their best defensively all season. Not sure if there is a correlation but it is what it is.

It just feels wrong that going 4-6 in your last ten games actually moves you up 3-4 places in the standings. I just don't understand how the other 5/6 teams can be so horrible.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I said in the game thread that since the Iginla and Bouwmeester were traded the Flames have played their best defensively all season. Not sure if there is a correlation but it is what it is.

It just feels wrong that going 4-6 in your last ten games actually moves you up 3-4 places in the standings. I just don't understand how the other 5/6 teams can be so horrible.

Look at Giguere's comments after we rolled the Ave's. Those guys aren't playing for anything at this point, and they have a coach and management that is doing little or nothing to motivate them. I imagine they aren't the only team like this. The one thing the Flames have going is a ton of youth trying to show they belong.

I am proud of the fact our guys have showed up for every single game, I just hate the fact that it hurts us.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Maybe but I don't recall the Oilers and Bluejackets having so much competition for top pick over the past few seasons. Like Duhatschek was saying this morning there are multiple teams that look like they won't win another game this season and the teams he's talking about aren't the usual suspects.

It's the short season, unlike other years there hasn't as much time for significant seperation between the bottom-feeders as there's been in prior years.

[Huntingwhale]

I just wanted to extend a big F U to Carolina, Nashville, and Tampa. Are you f'ing kidding me? All those teams were in playoff spots at some point in the season. And now, Nashville decides to lose 7 in a row? Carolina has 2 wins in their last 10? Tampa has freaking Stamkos ffs. Screw off and let us get our top 3 pick. Seriously, gtfo.

[Spinach]

A 3-point game between Jersey & Philly, with the Devils winning, would be ideal. Lately NJ hasn't shown any propensity to win, and they're a threat to finish in the bottom 6.

I just can't believe it's possible for the Flames to be "better" than all of Fla, the Avs, Carolina, Nashville, NJD, the Oilers, and maybe even Philly. The 8th overall pick isn't nearly as interesting as the 3 overall. Yet here we potentially are. Again.

Maybe trading away Comeau was the key to moderate success?

[Kaine]

This year more than any other I believe has demonstrated the extreme flaws in the current draft system. While the new CBA went a long way to fixing this (much more likely a team other than #30 will win) it's still just broken. I'm at a loss of how to go about fixing it other than randomizing draft positions for all teams that miss the playoffs. Far from ideal but it sure beats the current situation.

I can't ever remember so many teams realizing they will miss the playoffs and just going into full tank mode. Sure it happens every year with the bottom couple teams but this... I'm sorry but this is just embarrassing for the league.

[Ashasx]

When we traded Bouwmeester, I thought there was no way we wouldn't finish 30th overall. How wrong I was.

And I was getting my jersey ready to get a MacKinnon nameplate.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

When we traded Bouwmeester, I thought there was no way we wouldn't finish 30th overall. How wrong I was.

And I was getting my jersey ready to get a MacKinnon nameplate.

Without my knowledge of Flames history, I would suggest that maybe our prospects and youngsters are better than we realized, and they just needed an opportunity to play.

(But we all know that's not entirely true. They're just loose with no expectations, and running on emotion now, and will be average to terrible next season. A new handful of veteran signings and trades will ensure the Flames sit in a comfortable 9th - 12th at season's end next year)