The Drive for 30th

[TheGrimm]

I also pitched a while back a system where the draft lottery is based on your standings at the trade deadline. That way the final month or so of hockey isn't just a losers tourney. If a team wants to risk a playoff spot by trying to tank just prior to the deadline, well... they better be confident in their ability to make a late season push...

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I will say it appears at least on the surface that the new system has a flaw that actually encourages more teams to tank. The idea behind adding more chance for 2-14 to get the first overall pick was done to discourage teams from being Oilers bad finishing 30th in multiple seasons but from what I can see is that the 5-10 teams that would normally play out the string now can see that dropping a few spots greatly enhances their chance of picking 1st overall that was never an option in previous years. Has there ever been a season when there were so many teams have been sinking fast taking water like this season? Not a single team in the bottom 8 has won more than 4 of their last 10 games with one team at 0 wins, one at 1 win, one at 2 wins, and two at 3 wins. That's a lot of teams playing spectacularly bad at the same time and several of them were playoff teams last season. Anomaly or influence of new lottery?

I think it just seems like more teams are talking because we're involved

[moon]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I also pitched a while back a system where the draft lottery is based on your standings at the trade deadline. That way the final month or so of hockey isn't just a losers tourney. If a team wants to risk a playoff spot by trying to tank just prior to the deadline, well... they better be confident in their ability to make a late season push...

What if they just suck? Then too bad for you you are going to suck forever because we are taking away your ability to get the elite players you need to turn around your team?

I guess it would be interesting seeing these teams move or just outright fold when people stop going to their games but I am not sure the NHL would love seeing that happen.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I will say it appears at least on the surface that the new system has a flaw that actually encourages more teams to tank. The idea behind adding more chance for 2-14 to get the first overall pick was done to discourage teams from being Oilers bad finishing 30th in multiple seasons but from what I can see is that the 5-10 teams that would normally play out the string now can see that dropping a few spots greatly enhances their chance of picking 1st overall that was never an option in previous years. Has there ever been a season when there were so many teams have been sinking fast taking water like this season? Not a single team in the bottom 8 has won more than 4 of their last 10 games with one team at 0 wins, one at 1 win, one at 2 wins, and two at 3 wins. That's a lot of teams playing spectacularly bad at the same time.

If teams are intentionally telling their players to tank and the players are doing it then that's a severe integrity issue and the NHL has to find a way to remove that temptation because to me that would be incredibly wrong.

I honestly don't think that teams should be allowed to draft top 5 two years in a row, there shouldn't be a continual massive rewarding for failure. I believe that if you draft top 5 two years in a row the next year the earliest you can draft would be 15th.

You can argue that the Flames tried to tank by trading established players for futures and draft picks, as that goes against what every GM should be striving for which is remaining competitive.

However I don't believe a GM or a coach ever tells a team to go out and take it easy and lose games on purpose.

The Edmonton Oilers have tanked due to complete managerial and ownership incompetence, a terrible coach and a team that just can't function in the NHL, but I have a hard time believing that the coach or the GM went to the players and said "Gas it for McKinnon"

On a personal note, if the Flames players ever agreed to take it easy and not play hard intentionally it would be the last time the franchise gets any of my money.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by moon

What if they just suck? Then too bad for you you are going to suck forever because we are taking away your ability to get the elite players you need to turn around your team?

I guess it would be interesting seeing these teams move or just outright fold when people stop going to their games but I am not sure the NHL would love seeing that happen.

There's more to a GM's job then just sttting back and trying to improve your team by drafting first overall. If that wasn't the case then they could pay GM's minimum wage and give them a copy of the hockey news.

A GM is obligated to make and keep his team competitive, not to dive for the bottom of the standings.

I've never understood why it took so long for Oiler fans to blow over. They should have been demanding refunds the moment that Tambellini took his do nothing to make the team better strategy.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I think it just seems like more teams are talking because we're involved

Maybe but I don't recall the Oilers and Bluejackets having so much competition for top pick over the past few seasons. Like Duhatschek was saying this morning there are multiple teams that look like they won't win another game this season and the teams he's talking about aren't the usual suspects.

Something stinks and if every season plays out like this its going to be pretty sad with all these 0, 1, 2 win teams play so uncompetitively down the stretch. If you are a team fighting for the playoffs with one or two games against the Hurricanes down the stretch you have a decided leg up on you competition if they have teams playing competitive left on their schedule.

[moon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There's more to a GM's job then just sttting back and trying to improve your team by drafting first overall. If that wasn't the case then they could pay GM's minimum wage and give them a copy of the hockey news.

A GM is obligated to make and keep his team competitive, not to dive for the bottom of the standings.

I've never understood why it took so long for Oiler fans to blow over. They should have been demanding refunds the moment that Tambellini took his do nothing to make the team better strategy.

Sure but if you are the Panthers or Lightning and your team just sucked for the past two years it is a lot easier to sell your fans on good times coming based on Stamkos or Hubredeau coming in rather than hey we got the 15th best guy in the draft that may or may not play for our team in 3 years.

Sure the GM has to do more than hope for the 1st pick but if you give the better teams the best players and the bad teams are already behind the 8 ball with a lack of talent as it is what are the chances that they are going to get better and pass those better teams?

[Nehkara]

Warning: Wild and crazy idea ahead!


Draft Position

30 - Stanley Cup Winner
29-15 - Playoff qualifiers
14-9 - Missed playoffs, ranked league-wide according to points.

8-1 - Draft ranking single-elimination playoff (Occurs immediately after the end of the NHL regular season but before the Stanley Cup Playoffs - Should only take 6 days.)

Two worst teams in each division play each other. Winners from Div A and Div B play each other, as do the winners from Div C and Div D. Winners from each conference play each other. Losers of conference final games play each other in consolation game. Ranked similar to Olympics (Winner of final game gets 1st overall, loser gets 2nd. Winner of consolation gets 3rd, loser gets 4th. Other 4 teams get seeded in 5th to 8th by points with lowest number getting 5th and so on.)

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Yeesh, you guys are acting like the Flames are going to win each of their next five games. Chill out. Flames are bad for a reason. They're likely going to finish out the season on a dull note considering the upcoming competition. They've owned the Red Wings this season, but no one else that's fighting for playoffs.

I think the Flames are going to win at least two more games this year. They'll finish ahead of Edmonton/New Jersey and pick 8th. 7th at best, as Tampa's the only team I can see passing them.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by moon

Sure but if you are the Panthers or Lightning and your team just sucked for the past two years it is a lot easier to sell your fans on good times coming based on Stamkos or Hubredeau coming in rather than hey we got the 15th best guy in the draft that may or may not play for our team in 3 years.

Sure the GM has to do more than hope for the 1st pick but if you give the better teams the best players and the bad teams are already behind the 8 ball with a lack of talent as it is what are the chances that they are going to get better and pass those better teams?

I get that there is a risk of this happening, a team could be trying to get out of the basement but bad drafting in combination with poor free agent signings or a lack of UFA interest could put them in a lock. It could happen, just like it can happen to a team perpetually in 9th/10th place (ring any bells?).

Maybe a random equally weighted draft for all non-playoff teams is best, but there is certainly a higher degree of luck than most would probably like.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Tkaczuk is also a bad example because his career was de-railed by concussions.

Although, 6th Overall hasn't exactly been a gold-mine over the years:


2012 Hampus Lindholm D Rogle (Swe) Anaheim Ducks
2011 Mika Zibanejad C Djurgardens IF (Swe) Ottawa Senators
2010 Brett Connolly RW Prince George (WHL) Tampa Bay Lightning
2009 Oliver Ekman Larsson D Leksand (Swe) Phoenix Coyotes
2008 Nikita Filatov LW Moscow CSKA-2 Columbus Blue Jackets
2007 Sam Gagner RW London (OHL) Edmonton Oilers
2006 Derick Brassard C Drummondville (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2005 Gilbert Brule C Vancouver Giants (WHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2004 Al Montoya G U. of Michigan (NCAA) New York Rangers
2003 Milan Michalek LW/RW Ceske Budejovice HC (Czech) San Jose Sharks
2002 Scott Upshall LW/RW Kamloops Blazers (WHL) Nashville Predators
2001 Mikko Koivu C TPS Turku (FNL) Minnesota Wild
2000 Scott Hartnell C Prince Albert Raiders (WHL) Nashville Predators
1999 Brian Finley G Barrie Colts (OHL) Nashville Predators
1998 Rico Fata RW London Knights (OHL) Calgary Flames
1997 Daniel Tkaczuk C Barrie Colts (OHL) Calgary Flames
1996 Boyd Devereaux C Kitchener Rangers (OHL) Edmonton Oilers
1995 Steve Kelly LW Prince Albert Raiders (WHL) Edmonton Oilers
1994 Ryan Smyth LW Moose Jaw Warriors (WHL) Edmonton Oilers
1993 Viktor Kozlov C Moscow Dynamo (Russia) San Jose Sharks
1992 Cory Stillman C Windsor Spitfires (OHL) Calgary Flames
1991Peter Forsberg C Modo Hockey Ornskoldsvik (SEL) Philadelphia Flyers
1990 Scott Scissons C Saskatoon Blades (WHL) New York Islanders
1989 Adam Bennett D Sudbury Wolves (OHL) Chicago Blackhawks
1988 Scott Pearson LW Kingston Canadians (OHL) Toronto Maple Leafs
1987 Dave Archibald RW Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) Minnesota North Stars
1986 Vincent Damphousse C Laval Titan (QMJHL) Toronto Maple Leafs
1985 Brad Dalgarno RW Hamilton Steelhawks (OHL) New York Islanders
1984 Craig Redmond D Canadian National Team (Intl) Los Angeles Kings
1983 John MacLean RW Oshawa Generals (OHL) New Jersey Devils
1981 Jim Benning D Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) Toronto Maple Leafs
1980 Paul Coffey D Kitchener Rangers (OHA) Edmonton Oilers

Half of those players have had some measure of success playing in the NHL. Cannot belive Forsberg was picked sixth. Makes me want Lindholm at that spot even more.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If teams are intentionally telling their players to tank and the players are doing it then that's a severe integrity issue and the NHL has to find a way to remove that temptation because to me that would be incredibly wrong.

I honestly don't think that teams should be allowed to draft top 5 two years in a row, there shouldn't be a continual massive rewarding for failure. I believe that if you draft top 5 two years in a row the next year the earliest you can draft would be 15th.

You can argue that the Flames tried to tank by trading established players for futures and draft picks, as that goes against what every GM should be striving for which is remaining competitive.

However I don't believe a GM or a coach ever tells a team to go out and take it easy and lose games on purpose.

The Edmonton Oilers have tanked due to complete managerial and ownership incompetence, a terrible coach and a team that just can't function in the NHL, but I have a hard time believing that the coach or the GM went to the players and said "Gas it for McKinnon"

On a personal note, if the Flames players ever agreed to take it easy and not play hard intentionally it would be the last time the franchise gets any of my money.

I understand what you are saying and I don't believe that players are ordered to tank. There are however subtle ways for management and coaches to influence the competitiveness of the team. Like Dreger said last night Paul Maurice commented that the year the Hurricanes hit rock bottom and drafted Staal that the team was decimated and when he asked for help Rutherford told him the roster would recieve no help down the stretch. That's clearly tanking and it worked as Staal brought them a Stanley Cup. Professional sports is not much different than any other big business in that morales and integrity take a back seat to business goals.

[cannon7]

It's funny that the team starts winning and beating teams fighting for a playoff berth almost immediate after the team decides to cut the cord and bring up their youngsters. You can attribute the winning to playing without pressure, but they're beating teams that are fighting for their playoff lives. If this trend continues, Feaster/Sutter looks like complete idiots for waiting this long.

[moon]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I get that there is a risk of this happening, a team could be trying to get out of the basement but bad drafting in combination with poor free agent signings or a lack of UFA interest could put them in a lock. It could happen, just like it can happen to a team perpetually in 9th/10th place (ring any bells?).

Maybe a random equally weighted draft for all non-playoff teams is best, but there is certainly a higher degree of luck than most would probably like.

An equally weighted draft would be a terrible idea.

If the Rangers miss by a point and get the top pick that would be bad for the league and bad for teams at bottom that need the most help.

Tanking is way overblown by many (usually fans of teams not getting the top picks or winning).

[Igster]

Originally Posted by cannon7

It's funny that the team starts winning and beating teams fighting for a playoff berth almost immediate after the team decides to cut the cord and bring up their youngsters. You can attribute the winning to playing without pressure, but they're beating teams that are fighting for their playoff lives. If this trend continues, Feaster/Sutter looks like complete idiots for waiting this long.

Well, with the kids, the compete level is there and there isn't someone coasting on the right wing anymore.

Just sayin'...

[JiriHrdina]

I have mixed feelings about all this - certainly the higher the pick the better it would be for the Flames. But I look up the highway and I do wonder what stinks up there - why can't they even take a step in the right direction. How much does a culture of losing start to become part of who you are as a team and as an organization?

I desperately want the Flames to be in the top 4 - but failing that Lindholm or Monnahan at 5/6 isn't bad either. When you get to 7th that's where you now have to make a decision between a guy with crazy upside/risk (Russian dude) or a guy who perhaps has less upside.

Again the guy I have no view on and I am completely ignorant about is Nurse. I may be completely looking over him as part of that 2nd tier with guys like Lindholm.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by Schultzie

I think the Flames are going to win at least two more games this year. They'll finish ahead of Edmonton/New Jersey and pick 8th. 7th at best, as Tampa's the only team I can see passing them.

What games? I see the Flames beating Nashville but that is it. The other four teams are Anaheim, Minnesota, St. Louis, and Chicago.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

It's flawed because the option to set your team up for failure is often seen as the best way to rebuild, if you can't see this then we are obviously at an impasse.

I am not saying it isn't possible to rebuild in other ways, but the fact that you have teams which are compromising the integrity of the game is disappointing to me, and the NHL has a system which encourages this.

If it's so flawed, why does EVERY major North American league with a draft do it?

You're disregarding that they teams above them will continue to get better quality players. So not only are you having trouble attracting top tier free agents (who would want to sign for a bottom team that can't improve?), but you can't trade for top tier talent because they have no assets that a team with good assets would be interested in exchanging for. You actually have put them in a black hole.

You say a good GM would be able to get them out of the mess, but that's a lot to ask when the teams above you are potentially getting better quality players into their systems every year, and have every type of advantage over you in attracting players or trading for players. How the heck are they suppose to sign free agents, since the player would actually want to play there? How the heck are they suppose to trade for impact players? They'll have to have impact prospects themselves, or great quality picks. Except the team that would trade with them, probably have better items in both of those categories. And now they can't even get the top tier prospects to help propel their team forward. How the hell are they going to get better? Explain that. Because if you can figure out a technique to pull a team from the basement to a competitor under this system, then perhaps it can be viable. (But stupid)

I don't know how you don't see how idiotic it preventing bad teams from getting the first picks is. There's a reason why every league has given favour to those teams in drafts. It's because it makes complete sense, and is most fair.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

The irony that kind of summarizes our history - a useless plug like Begin is going to cost us a franchise center.

Originally Posted by McG

Some how we have a culture of winning when it doesn't matter, and losing when it does.

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

He came back from the young guns era with the sole purpose to bring back the young guys era of perpetual mediocrity

Unfortunately...

Originally Posted by Ashasx

On paper, I'd say we are the worst team in the league.

And I expect the media will predict as much next season.

The Flames really needed a top 3 pick, and they're not going to get it. Now we have to toil for a whole 82 games to get Sam Reinhart (and likely lose him in the lottery).

I thought you were saying how great we were on paper at the start of the season, and outraged about media bias for picking us to be a 14th place team in the West?

[The Yen Man]

Yah, I'm not going to lie, I was actively cheering for Detroit to win last night. I've come to gripes with it. Seeing the Flames increasingly lose their hold on the potential Mackinnon pick really sucks. I can honestly say I was in a foul mood last night for the first time in as long as I can remember after a Flames win.