The Drive for 30th

[Vinny01]

Of our 5 remaining games 4 are on the road on the home game is against #2 in the west who owned us this year. I think we can easily go 1-4 and still be right in that bottom 4-5. Losing all 5 could secure us last in the west

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

People like to talk about Tkaczuk like he was a bad pick at 6th. He wasn't a reach and was picked whre he was projected to be picked. It just illustrates how much more hit and miss it gets when you draft outside the top 3 in the draft.

Tkaczuk is also a bad example because his career was de-railed by concussions.

Although, 6th Overall hasn't exactly been a gold-mine over the years:


2012 Hampus Lindholm D Rogle (Swe) Anaheim Ducks
2011 Mika Zibanejad C Djurgardens IF (Swe) Ottawa Senators
2010 Brett Connolly RW Prince George (WHL) Tampa Bay Lightning
2009 Oliver Ekman Larsson D Leksand (Swe) Phoenix Coyotes
2008 Nikita Filatov LW Moscow CSKA-2 Columbus Blue Jackets
2007 Sam Gagner RW London (OHL) Edmonton Oilers
2006 Derick Brassard C Drummondville (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2005 Gilbert Brule C Vancouver Giants (WHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2004 Al Montoya G U. of Michigan (NCAA) New York Rangers
2003 Milan Michalek LW/RW Ceske Budejovice HC (Czech) San Jose Sharks
2002 Scott Upshall LW/RW Kamloops Blazers (WHL) Nashville Predators
2001 Mikko Koivu C TPS Turku (FNL) Minnesota Wild
2000 Scott Hartnell C Prince Albert Raiders (WHL) Nashville Predators
1999 Brian Finley G Barrie Colts (OHL) Nashville Predators
1998 Rico Fata RW London Knights (OHL) Calgary Flames
1997 Daniel Tkaczuk C Barrie Colts (OHL) Calgary Flames
1996 Boyd Devereaux C Kitchener Rangers (OHL) Edmonton Oilers
1995 Steve Kelly LW Prince Albert Raiders (WHL) Edmonton Oilers
1994 Ryan Smyth LW Moose Jaw Warriors (WHL) Edmonton Oilers
1993 Viktor Kozlov C Moscow Dynamo (Russia) San Jose Sharks
1992 Cory Stillman C Windsor Spitfires (OHL) Calgary Flames
1991Peter Forsberg C Modo Hockey Ornskoldsvik (SEL) Philadelphia Flyers
1990 Scott Scissons C Saskatoon Blades (WHL) New York Islanders
1989 Adam Bennett D Sudbury Wolves (OHL) Chicago Blackhawks
1988 Scott Pearson LW Kingston Canadians (OHL) Toronto Maple Leafs
1987 Dave Archibald RW Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) Minnesota North Stars
1986 Vincent Damphousse C Laval Titan (QMJHL) Toronto Maple Leafs
1985 Brad Dalgarno RW Hamilton Steelhawks (OHL) New York Islanders
1984 Craig Redmond D Canadian National Team (Intl) Los Angeles Kings
1983 John MacLean RW Oshawa Generals (OHL) New Jersey Devils
1981 Jim Benning D Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) Toronto Maple Leafs
1980 Paul Coffey D Kitchener Rangers (OHA) Edmonton Oilers

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Of our 5 remaining games 4 are on the road on the home game is against #2 in the west who owned us this year. I think we can easily go 1-4 and still be right in that bottom 4-5. Losing all 5 could secure us last in the west

That is glass-half-full my friend.

I've also never been so optimistic about losing before...

[moon]

Colorado and Florida are likely out of reach now and with the Flames luck the last couple of games it appears at least one other team will finish lower than us as well.

I think now the focus has to be to stay in that 4th/5th spot to ensure getting a Barkov/Lindholm/Monahan at the very least.

Not nearly as nice as getting MacKinnon but better than being in the 7/8/9 slot and having to pick between the two defensemen and Shinkaruk/Nichuskin. Too much risk with them in my view.

[TheGrimm]

I seriously hate the current draft rules.

It should be a battle for draft rankings with the bottom 16. Reverse the lottery and have the 17th overall team have the highest chance at 1st pick. The idea of mailing it in is sickening and IMO doesn't belong in pro sports. I don't even care if this change allows crappy teams to stay at the bottom of the league, if they can't get OUT of the basement then they need to fire management and retool. Rewarding incompetence is not exactly doing the league any favors.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I seriously hate the current draft rules.

It should be a battle for draft rankings with the bottom 16. Reverse the lottery and have the 17th overall team have the highest chance at 1st pick. The idea of mailing it in is sickening and IMO doesn't belong in pro sports.

I don't think that solves the issue and it doesn't really promote parity (I'd hate to see an otherwise good team get a franchise player just because they had a one time freak injury and finished 9th instead of 6th).

What I would do is narrow the lottory weightings a tad (but still have it be progressive) and have picks 1-14 all determined by the lotto (so they pull a ball for the 1st pick, then pull a ball for the 2nd pick, etc. etc.). If you have no guarentee of picking even in a small range of slots then you have no incentive to not ice your best roster.

[Jason14h]

It should be a battle for draft rankings with the bottom 16. Reverse the lottery and have the 17th overall team have the highest chance at 1st pick. The idea of mailing it in is sickening and IMO doesn't belong in pro sports. I don't even care if this change allows crappy teams to stay at the bottom of the league, if they can't get OUT of the basement then they need to fire management and retool. Rewarding incompetence is not exactly doing the league any favors.

Yeah the worst team should totally get the 17th pick, and then magically improve!

Just curious how you think a bad team would ever improve if every other non-playoff team got a better pick then them?

And do you really think Florida and Colorado are 'Mailing it in'? Maybe they are just at the bottom because, hmmm, they suck?

[Stay Golden]

Glad to see Kipper get the win and if they pull a big upset vs ANA i would be ok with that but please lose all the final 4 road games!

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I seriously hate the current draft rules.

It should be a battle for draft rankings with the bottom 16. Reverse the lottery and have the 17th overall team have the highest chance at 1st pick. The idea of mailing it in is sickening and IMO doesn't belong in pro sports. I don't even care if this change allows crappy teams to stay at the bottom of the league, if they can't get OUT of the basement then they need to fire management and retool. Rewarding incompetence is not exactly doing the league any favors.

The only people who complain about the current draft pick system are those that have no idea why the current system is the way it is. It's the logical reason since it makes no sense otherwise.

I don't understand how the WORST team in the league doesn't deserve to the best chance to pick first? Why does a team that finished best not to make the playoffs deserve the chance at the next franchise player moreso than the one that had the worst season of the year? One team actually needs it more based on the results.

I mean comeon, actually think about it. You're basically giving incentive to be good, but not that great so then you can become an instant cup contender in a year or two since you finished as a playoff bubble team. Meanwhile for the team that sucks the most, how are they suppose to make progress towards improvement if the teams above them in the standings are getting much, much better resources to improve? You're basically keeping them stuck there for all eternity. At some point you'll be putting that team in financial danger since fan support will diminish due to apathy.

No matter what, there will ALWAYS be an incentive to finish at a certain place if you don't make the playoffs. With your proposal, why stop at 17th overall? Why not reward the stanley cup champion the first overall pick? An work the draft rankings down from there? Because that's just about as ridiculous. The teams that are really bad need that first overall pick moreso than any other. And there's nothing wrong with that. They need the resource to recover as quickly as possible to become a competitive team once again.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

People like to talk about Tkaczuk like he was a bad pick at 6th. He wasn't a reach and was picked whre he was projected to be picked. It just illustrates how much more hit and miss it gets when you draft outside the top 3 in the draft.

Agreed - and he looked to be progressing nicely until he had some concussion issues, and IIRC never was quite the same.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

It's not complicated. It is simply instructing a team to lose for a draft pick or helping them within there strengths and weaknesses to win games. Coaching them to do better. Simple.

Why do you think that the only way to lose games is to "instruct them to lose"?

Why can't you sit Kipper and Cammallerri?

Why can't you play Baertschi and Backlund 25 minutes a game? Why not Brodie for 30 minutes a game? You would think that doing that would actually push them harder - letting them know that they need to work hard to build that strength, endurance and skill.

Why not play some unknowns on the PP, and put your young stars on the PK to teach them responsibility?

The point is, that win yesterday probably set this franchise back another 5 years.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

And do you really think Florida and Colorado are 'Mailing it in'? Maybe they are just at the bottom because, hmmm, they suck?

The Avalanche could have fired their head coach months ago when it was apparent the team quit playing for him (heck the backup goaltender looks to have more of a grip on the team that's how far gone Sacco is). In hopes of turning around the season much like the Sabres who went from 2nd last overall to two points out of the playoffs after firing their coach. Instead they only brought back ROR when their hand was forced and they never fired their coach. I believe this franchise mailed it in months ago.

Warrener said on the fan that he's talked to some Panthers and that the vets don't like Dineen's coaching methods. Now I'm not saying he should have been fired like Sacco but it seems that things have been wrong with that team since day one and were never attempted corrections. I feel this is partially a bad team and partially a GM who has experience in rebuilding through top draft picks going back to the well.

It's rarely the players that are the ones mailing things in. It's usually done from above much like how Darren Dreger said on the Flames telecast.

[Dorkmaster]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Why do you think that the only way to lose games is to "instruct them to lose"?

Why can't you sit Kipper and Cammallerri?

Why can't you play Baertschi and Backlund 25 minutes a game? Why not Brodie for 30 minutes a game? You would think that doing that would actually push them harder - letting them know that they need to work hard to build that strength, endurance and skill.

Why not play some unknowns on the PP, and put your young stars on the PK to teach them responsibility?

The point is, that win yesterday probably set this franchise back another 5 years.

As sensationalist as that sounds, it could be very correct. Imagine the Oilers getting Patrick Kane instead of Sam Gagner. Could've made a huge difference in their rebuild. Looking back, most of the guys picked in that 5-10 range haven't made a huge impact on their franchises.

[FBI]

I think "culture of winning", "culture of losing", are going to be my new most hated hockey phrases pretty soon..

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by Joborule

The only people who complain about the current draft pick system are those that have no idea why the current system is the way it is. It's the logical reason since it makes no sense otherwise.

I don't understand how the WORST team in the league doesn't deserve to the best chance to pick first? Why does a team that finished best not to make the playoffs deserve the chance at the next franchise player moreso than the one that had the worst season of the year? One team actually needs it more based on the results.

I mean comeon, actually think about it. You're basically giving incentive to be good, but not that great so then you can become an instant cup contender in a year or two since you finished as a playoff bubble team. Meanwhile for the team that sucks the most, how are they suppose to make progress towards improvement if the teams above them in the standings are getting much, much better resources to improve? You're basically keeping them stuck there for all eternity. At some point you'll be putting that team in financial danger since fan support will diminish due to apathy.

No matter what, there will ALWAYS be an incentive to finish at a certain place if you don't make the playoffs. With your proposal, why stop at 17th overall? Why not reward the stanley cup champion the first overall pick? An work the draft rankings down from there? Because that's just about as ridiculous. The teams that are really bad need that first overall pick moreso than any other. And there's nothing wrong with that. They need the resource to recover as quickly as possible to become a competitive team once again.

I fully understand why the draft is setup the way it is, but as I said it's still a flawed system as it rewards incompetence and lackluster play. I get that there is a "risk" that teams would get stuck in 30th if they rewarded 17th overall with the highest lottery pick, the same risk that teams that continually PUSH to make the playoffs face by staying in the hunt for so long and not making it. The difference is that the team that mails it in is rewarded.

I would not be opposed to having an equally weighted lottery for every non-playoff pick in the draft either. At least teams would play for pride then.

[stanleycup1989]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Why do you think that the only way to lose games is to "instruct them to lose"?

Why can't you sit Kipper and Cammallerri?

Why can't you play Baertschi and Backlund 25 minutes a game? Why not Brodie for 30 minutes a game? You would think that doing that would actually push them harder - letting them know that they need to work hard to build that strength, endurance and skill.

Why not play some unknowns on the PP, and put your young stars on the PK to teach them responsibility?

The point is, that win yesterday probably set this franchise back another 5 years.

I can't see how the win helped the team in any way.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I fully understand why the draft is setup the way it is, but as I said it's still a flawed system as it rewards incompetence and lackluster play. I get that there is a "risk" that teams would get stuck in 30th if they rewarded 17th overall with the highest lottery pick, the same risk that teams that continually PUSH to make the playoffs face by staying in the hunt for so long and not making it. The difference is that the team that mails it in is rewarded.

I would not be opposed to having an equally weighted lottery for every non-playoff pick in the draft either. At least teams would play for pride then.

Teams are bad for a reason. If they wern't bad, they would do better than worst in the league. Teams that can push to make the playoffs have much more talent than those that are at the basement. They don't need a franchise player as much as they bad team does.

Who cares if they mail it in? That's their own problem. The intention is to not be stuck in the bottom for the long haul, like your proposal would do. The team that pushes to make the playoffs do get rewarded. They have games that count still and thus give incentive to their fanbase to attend the games. So they get rewarded by revenue, where it really counts. The bottom tier leagues would love to have that. And that's what they want in the future. They won't be getting that if they don't get the chance at the best prospects available.

Just because the Flames chances of getting first overall aren't great at the moment, doesn't mean the system is flawed.

There's a reason why the first picks are given to the worst teams, and the latest picks are given to the team with the most successful seasons.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Teams are bad for a reason. If they wern't bad, they would do better than worst in the league. Teams that can push to make the playoffs have much more talent than those that are at the basement. They don't need a franchise player as much as they bad team does.

Who cares if they mail it in? That's their own problem. The intention is to not be stuck in the bottom for the long haul, like your proposal would do. The team that pushes to make the playoffs do get rewarded. They have games that count still and thus give incentive to their fanbase to attend the games. So they get rewarded by revenue, where it really counts. The bottom tier leagues would love to have that. And that's what they want in the future. They won't be getting that if they don't get the chance at the best prospects available.

Just because the Flames chances of getting first overall aren't great at the moment, doesn't mean the system is flawed.

There's a reason why the first picks are given to the worst teams, and the latest picks are given to the team with the most successful seasons.

It's flawed because the option to set your team up for failure is often seen as the best way to rebuild, if you can't see this then we are obviously at an impasse.

I am not saying it isn't possible to rebuild in other ways, but the fact that you have teams which are compromising the integrity of the game is disappointing to me, and the NHL has a system which encourages this.

[Erick Estrada]

I will say it appears at least on the surface that the new system has a flaw that actually encourages more teams to tank. The idea behind adding more chance for 2-14 to get the first overall pick was done to discourage teams from being Oilers bad finishing 30th in multiple seasons but from what I can see is that the 5-10 teams that would normally play out the string now can see that dropping a few spots greatly enhances their chance of picking 1st overall that was never an option in previous years. Has there ever been a season when there were so many teams have been sinking fast taking water like this season? Not a single team in the bottom 8 has won more than 4 of their last 10 games with one team at 0 wins, one at 1 win, one at 2 wins, and two at 3 wins. That's a lot of teams playing spectacularly bad at the same time and several of them were playoff teams last season. Anomaly or influence of new lottery?

[#-3]

Originally Posted by stanleycup1989

I can't see how the win helped the team in any way.

1st off WE WON!