Papal Conclave 2013

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I dont support the church's position on contraception, women or homosexuals (amongst other things i take issue with).

Should the vatican call me for an explanation, im happy to give them one. Until then, i'll join the tens of millions or hundreds of millions of other catholics who share my opinions and encourage the church to revisit its postions.

Ultimately on many issues i think that comes down to a private conversation between an individual and God.

Sure, but here's the thing:

If you don't support the Vatican's stance on contraception, women, or homosexuals (among other issues), you can't be a Catholic. That's not me just saying that; that's the official position of the Church itself. If your priest was aware of your views, he'd likely deny you communion or even excommunicate you.

[killer_carlson]

Well, sorry to wreck your misconception, but not only was my priest aware of these views, he was aware of them and still married us in the church.

You can be Catholic and still have your own views , despite popular myth.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

It isnt basically the truth at all.

There are bad people who have done bad things. THEY need to be held accountable. That includes those who hid or covered it up. However it is not the majority and it is improper punish those not involved through the court of public opinion.

We dont do that in a western society.

Cardinal Ratsinberger was part of the cover up, it was he that reiterated that the church's position was to deal with abuse in house.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Well, sorry to wreck your misconception, but not only was my priest aware of these views, he was aware of them and still married us in the church.

You can be Catholic and still have your own views , despite popular myth.

If you reject some parts of Church doctrine (for example the Vatican's position on women or contraceptives), then you are guilty of heresy. According to the 1983 Code of Canon Law, the penalty for heresy is automatic excommunication. The Catholic Church is quite clear about this.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...xcommunication

Full Question

Having an abortion means automatic excommunication from the Church. Are there other sins that carry this penalty?

Answer

Yes. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law (CIC) eight other sins carry the penalty of automatic excommunication: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), violating the sacred species (CIC 1367), physically attacking the pope (CIC 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin (CIC 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (CIC 1382), and directly violating the seal of confession (1388:1).

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial, after baptism, of a defined Catholic doctrine. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be in communion with members of the Church who are in communion with him (CIC 751).

Violation of the sacred species is the throwing away the consecrated species of Christ's body or blood or the taking or retaining of them for a sacrilegious purpose (CIC 1367).

Physically attacking the pope is self-explanatory, as are absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin and consecrating a bishop without authorization from the Vatican.

A direct violation of the seal of confession is one in which both the penitent and the penitent's sin can easily be determined by the confessor's words or behavior. Again, the penalty of automatic excommunication does not apply if no one perceives the disclosure (CIC 1330).

Automatic excommunication for abortion (CIC 1398) applies not only to the woman who has the abortion, but to "all those who commit this crime with knowledge of the penalty attached, and [this] includes those accomplices without whose help the crime would not have been committed" (Evangelium Vitae 62).

No one is automatically excommunicated for any offense if, without any fault of his own, he was unaware that he was violating a law (CIC 1323:2) or that a penalty was attached to the law (CIC 1324:1:9). The same applies if one was a minor, had the imperfect use of reason, was forced through grave or relatively grave fear, was forced through serious inconvenience, or in certain other circumstances (CIC 1324).

Emphasis added.

[killer_carlson]

Ok, go ahead and report me.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Cardinal Ratsinberger

Do you mean Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Benedict XVI?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Ok, go ahead and report me.

Report yourself. The only way the Vatican will pull itself out of the dark ages is if the "tens of millions or hundreds of millions of other catholics" who share your opinions stand up and be counted in open defiance to Church doctrine instead of quietly attending mass and accepting communion each week while secretly holding "heretical" views.

[killer_carlson]

Sure. Ill get right on that.

I choose my own methods of addressing the church. You may have different views. That is ok too.

[MarchHare]

And since we're on this topic, I actually did report myself. I wrote and mailed the following letter to our bishop yesterday.

Bishop Frederick Henry
Catholic Pastoral Centre
170 17th Ave SW
Calgary, AB
T2S 2T2


13 March 2013


Your Excellency,

I was baptized at Saint Joachim’s Church in Saint John, New Brunswick in 1980 and received the sacrament of Confirmation at Saint Mark’s Church in Quispamsis, New Brunswick in 1994. Since 2002, I have been living in Calgary under the auspices of your diocese.

Like millions of people around the world, I have used the occasion of the election of His Holiness Pope Francis as an opportunity to reflect on the role of the Catholic Church in both my life and the world. My thoughts on this matter have inexorably led me to the conclusion that many of the Vatican’s positions are utterly at odds with what is fair, righteous, and just in our modern twenty-first century society.

To wit:

Contrary to Church doctrine, I firmly support the notion that women should enjoy full equality of status in all fields of life. There exists no attribute or quality that makes men uniquely equipped to serve their communities and God in the offices of priest, bishop, archbishop, cardinal, or even pope.

I believe that everyone should have the opportunity to commit to a life-long monogamous marriage with the person they love regardless of sexual orientation. When Canada legalized gay marriage in 2005, I applauded the result and sent a letter to my Member of Parliament at the time, the Honourable Jim Prentice, commending him for having the courage to vote with the Liberal government in favour of extending the right of marriage to homosexuals instead of standing with the anti-equality members from his own Conservative Party.

I am steadfastly against the Church’s position on the use of contraceptives. In particular, the Vatican’s opposition to latex condoms has resulted in thousands of innocents becoming needlessly infected with HIV and eventually dying of AIDS. Through deliberate campaigns of misinformation -- particularly in Africa -- about the effectiveness of condoms at preventing the spread of HIV, the Vatican has blood on its hands. History will not judge The Church kindly on this matter.

Finally, I strongly believe that abortion is a deeply personal issue and should remain a legal option for women who choose to make that difficult decision. In the past, I have voted for, donated to, and volunteered for political parties that have committed to preserving the legality of abortion in Canada.

I understand that holding these opinions brands me as a heretic in the eyes of the Church. Additionally, I have on multiple occasions attempted to convince other Catholics of the wrongness of The Vatican’s teachings on these subjects.

I am not writing this letter to ask for forgiveness or redemption. Indeed, there is absolutely nothing Your Excellency could say that would make me reconsider any of these views. I understand that the Code of Canon Law dictates that I must be excommunicated for my unrepentant sin of heresy. I await Your Excellency’s judgement on this matter.


Sincerely,

[The Yen Man]

All the pomp and ceremonies seem so cultish, it's actually pretty creepy. The Vatican is just another entity made up of power hungry individuals. I honestly believe none of them actually believe in God or believe in what they preach. They just use it to their advantage to climb as high as possible up the ladder to satisfy their power hungry egos.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

And since we're on this topic, I actually did report myself. I wrote and mailed the following letter to our bishop yesterday.

This is an honest post.

Good for you for doing that.

My question is what will you do if his response is to kick you out? Will you accept it or fight it?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

And since we're on this topic, I actually did report myself. I wrote and mailed the following letter to our bishop yesterday.

If you're serious, there are organizations for change within the Catholic community. Some clergy support them as well.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

Also, just an FYI... you are not up to date with the Church's stance on condoms:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...ric-shift.html

And a note on Africa... the parts of Africa that most ravaged by AIDS, are not the Catholic areas. In general, Catholic countries have lower AIDS rates than other countries. African customs are mostly to blame there.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/re...-as-percentage
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...revalence-rate


The Catholic Church is also one of the largest care providers for people dying of AIDS (through charities) and is one of the biggest advocates in Canada and the US for promoting government spending on HIV and AIDS related research and care. Google Catholic AIDS charity and they are numerous.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

This is an honest post.

Good for you for doing that.

My question is what will you do if his response is to kick you out? Will you accept it or fight it?

Not only will I accept it, I'd welcome it. Over the years it has become clear to me that the Catholic Church is a morally-bankrupt organization (that isn't to say there aren't good Catholics; it's the institution itself that is evil) with many views that have no place in the modern, enlightened world. Following the death of Pope John Paul II, I was hopeful that the Church would select someone who would lead them into the 21st century. Instead, they have now picked two new popes in a row who will keep Catholic doctrine mired in the dark ages. I cannot in good conscious belong to such an organization.

While visiting my family at Christmas, I had a conversation with my father (a life-long devout Catholic) about this. Just like killer_carlson, he too rejects the Vatican's stance on many issues. He described himself as a "cafeteria Catholic" in that he agrees with the Church's views on issues like the forgiveness of sin and life everlasting, but he doesn't accept the Catholic position on the ordination of women or the use of contraceptives, among other topics. At the risk of Godwinning myself, I suggested that his opinion is akin to someone in the 1930s describing himself as a "cafeteria Nazi" in that he doesn't agree with Hitler's persecution of Jews but he likes how Germany's economy has recovered and that the trains are running on time. I also reminded him of the Edmund Burke quote, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I will not do nothing.

[M*A*S*H 4077]

Apparently Pope Francis walked down to his hotel and paid the bill himself. http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/humble-p...bill-1.1195028

While I don't expect there to be major changed during his time as Pope, I do think the Catholic Church is slowly entering a transition period (for the better)

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Also, just an FYI... you are not up to date with the Church's stance on condoms:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...ric-shift.html

And a note on Africa... the parts of Africa that most ravaged by AIDS, are not the Catholic areas. In general, Catholic countries have lower AIDS rates than other countries. African customs are mostly to blame there.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/re...-as-percentage
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...revalence-rate


The Catholic Church is also one of the largest care providers for people dying of AIDS (through charities) and is one of the biggest advocates in Canada and the US for promoting government spending on HIV and AIDS related research and care. Google Catholic AIDS charity and they are numerous.

Thanks for posting that. I wasn't aware of the recent (2010) change in the Church's policy towards condoms. That said, the point I made in my letter is still valid. People have been needlessly exposed to HIV because of Catholic opposition to condoms. I wonder how long it will take Pope Benedict's 2010 change in policy to un-do all the damage the Church previously caused. For example:

In May 2005, shortly after taking office, the pope made his first pronouncement on Aids, and came out against condoms. He was addressing bishops from South Africa, where somebody dies of Aids every two minutes; Botswana, where 23.9% of adults between 15 and 49 are HIV positive; Swaziland, where 26.1% of adults have HIV; Namibia (a trifling 15%); and Lesotho, 23%.

This is continuing. In March 2009, on his flight to Cameroon (where 540,000 people have HIV), Pope Benedict XVI explained that Aids is a tragedy "that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems". In May 2009, the Congolese bishops conference made a happy announcement: "In all truth, the pope's message which we received with joy has confirmed us in our fight against HIV/Aids. We say no to condoms!"

His stance has been supported, in the past year alone, by Cardinal George Pell of Sydney and Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor, the Archbishop of Westminster. "It is quite ridiculous to go on about Aids in Africa and condoms, and the Catholic Church," says O'Connor.

"I talk to priests who say, 'My diocese is flooded with condoms and there is more Aids because of them.'"

Some have been more imaginative in their quest to spread the message against condoms. In 2007, Archbishop Francisco Chimoio of Mozambique announced that European condom manufacturers are deliberately infecting condoms with HIV to spread Aids in Africa. Out of every 8 people in Mozambique, one has HIV.

It was Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo of Colombia who most famously claimed that the HIV virus can pass through tiny holes in the rubber of condoms. Again, he was not alone. "The condom is a cork," said Bishop Demetrio Fernandez of Spain, "and not always effective."

In 2005 Bishop Elio Sgreccia, president of the Pontifical Academy for Life, explained that scientific research has never proven that condoms "immunise against infection".

He's right, they don't. They stop the virus which kills you from being transmitted during sex.

[...]

ABC is a widely used prevention acronym in Africa: abstain, be [faithful], [use a] condom. Picking out one effective measure and actively campaigning against it is plainly destructive, just as telling people to abstain doesn't make everyone abstain, and telling people to use condoms won't make everyone use them. But Ratzinger has proclaimed: "The most effective presence on the front in the battle against HIV/Aids is the Catholic church and her institutions."

This is ludicrous. You, the Catholic church, is the only major influential international political organisation that actively tells people not to do something that works – on a huge scale. Your own figures show that your numbers are growing in Africa, even faster than the population does.

I'm happy for you to suggest abstention. But sabotaging an effective intervention which prevents a disease that kills 2 million people a year makes you a serious global public health problem.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...pe-anti-condom

[Jude]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Sure, but here's the thing:

If you don't support the Vatican's stance on contraception, women, or homosexuals (among other issues), you can't be a Catholic. That's not me just saying that; that's the official position of the Church itself. If your priest was aware of your views, he'd likely deny you communion or even excommunicate you.

I thought excommunicated Catholics are still Catholics, they just can't partake in Eucharist amongst other activities?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Thanks for posting that. I wasn't aware of the recent (2010) change in the Church's policy towards condoms. That said, the point I made in my letter is still valid. People have been needlessly exposed to HIV because of Catholic opposition to condoms. I wonder how long it will take Pope Benedict's 2010 change in policy to un-do all the damage the Church previously caused. For example:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...pe-anti-condom

The issue I have is that while I agree that the message the Catholic Church sent was the wrong one, the Catholic Church actually has relatively poor inroads in most of the countries in Africa where AIDS is ravaging. So yeah, I disagree with what their take on the situation was, but they are not to blame for it. African customs that are opposed to monogamy and a level of mysogyny out done by even the Catholic Church has a much bigger roll.

I think it's fair to ask the Church to change (and good for you for being vocal about it), but they do get too much blame for the AIDS problems around the world. It's like blaming the inner city gun problem on hunters. They promote the weapon, but they aren't the ones using it irresponsibly either.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Jude

I thought excommunicated Catholics are still Catholics, they just can't partake in Eucharist amongst other activities?

Yes, you're correct. I worded that poorly.

My point was that the Catholic Church is not a "pick and choose what you like" organization. In order to remain a Catholic in good standing, one must completely accept and embrace all of the Church's doctrines.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Yes, you're correct. I worded that poorly.

My point was that the Catholic Church is not a "pick and choose what you like" organization. In order to remain a Catholic in good standing, one must keep ones mouth shut about your doubts completely accept and embrace all of the Church's doctrines.

fyp

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm a lapsed Catholic, I left the church a long time ago as did most of my family due to issues with a particular individual that could be classed as a severe f%%k up of church priorities.

I don't agree with the church on some key issues that would prevent me from going back, and do believe that the church needs a new version of Martin Luther to kick off a reformation of the institution.

I don't believe that this is the guy to do it with the vigor that it needs to happen, I: don't think that they had that candidate yet as we are still dealing with an older and stauncher generation.

However, I do get my ire up a bit on the other side. People have the right to believe what they want to believe, they have the right to worship if they want to worship and pray if they want to pray.

I do believe that there is a wide brush condemnation of Catholicism that's a bit odorous and actually prevents positive action from happening at a church level. I also believe that there is a tremendous politically correct double standard being applied to organized religion.

I have to hope tho that this pope realizes that this has to be a all hands on deck emergency all stop repair of the church and its reputation.

I believe that they have to fully open up on the child abuse scandals, I believe that there has to be a fairly wide spread condemnation, open excommunication and communication with law enforcement over this heinous period. "I beleive that the whole the church will judge them and god will punish them mentality has to go.

I believe that the church does have to accept Homosexual rights, however if the church doesn't want to include homosexual marriage into their services and rights then that's fine as well.

I believe that the church has made strides on the contraceptive issue, but they need to go a bit further on it.

I believe that the church will only go so far on abortion rights, but I: am onboard to an extent as I am middling on the abortion issue. I don't believe in late term abortion for contraceptive reasons, and I still struggle with abortion as birth control, I believe that the fetus does have some rights to live. Please don't start a debate on it though, I'm not going to change my mind.

I also believe that this generation of popes and cardinals is the one that is going to make these changes.

I also think that it would be cool to have woman priests, especially hot ones. And that priests should be allowed to get married, however if they aspire to a higher office they can still stay married but take a vow of celibacy like they do in the Greek Orthodox.