How much longer do you think the Oilers will be this bad for?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The Flames are dead last now without having sold anything off. The Hawks finished dead last by continually dealing their players with value, not by holding onto a dead husk of a team, attempting to supplement the team by dealing away picks for ready-now players.

They also finished last after getting big ticket players. I think it's great the Hawks finally were able to move on from their previous horrible owner but they finally turned things around once they finished dead last and got Toews and Kane. That's it. That wasn't a plan, that was what happened because of total sucking and why Tanllon was eventually let go.

I don't see the Hawks as an example of a brilliant master plan of a team that was on top, then had a plan to burn it to the ground to rebuild.

They certainly rebuilt, but because of situation, not by choice.

No team ever goes for the first overall pick, that decision is unfortunately thrust upon them. They may accept it and go for it then but it's not an initial idea.

[Locke]

I hate when people come in to threads like this and start spouting off about 'jinxes' and 'karma.'

And Boogeyman is going to get you too if you dont watch out!!

Seriously, the Oilers are a legitimate topic of discussion. If you accumulate this much talent and still manage to do nothing with it then the question of 'why' is going to arise.

What might even be more interesting is; why hasnt this question been asked sooner?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

They also finished last after getting big ticket players. I think it's great the Hawks finally were able to move on from their previous horrible owner but they finally turned things around once they finished dead last and got Toews and Kane. That's it. That wasn't a plan, that was what happened because of total sucking and why Tanllon was eventually let go.

What?

What on earth?

Dale Tallon was let go because they finished last and drafted two franchise players and won the stanley cup?

What?

It's not about sucking and lucking into a top player, it's about CONTINUALLY SELLING VALUABLE ASSETS TO ACCUMULATE PICKS IN THE DRAFT.

where they finish in the standings is secondary to GETTING PICKS FOR PLAYERS.

Boiling it down to Kane and Toews is quite easy. It's the 12 players they drafted other than those two that made up the bulk of the cup winning roster, players drafted by the organization with picks acquired from other teams for veterans. Picks that now make up the majority of their core group that is looking like a cup contender today.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Flash, you seem to think I'm not saying the Blackhawks rebuilt, obviously they did. You're very confused about what I'm saying.

I'm saying they rebuilt because they were a bad team, that's why. That's what happens. Bad teams are eventually forced into rebuilding. That's exactly what the Blackhawks did. That's eventually what the Flames, like many teams before them, will be forced to do.

Sometimes you can weasle your way out of a rebuild, like the Senators but the Flames haven't been so crafty or lucky.

The Blackhawks didn't have some master plan, they were a bad team that were forced into a rebuilding phase. Good for them for doing it and also for having some luck that their moves (getting Bulin, Aucion one summer, Havlat etc the next) didn't have an adverse effect on that.

I hope the Flames get a top pick this summer and build on it, but it was decision, like the Hawks, forced up on them.

[Flash Walken]

I'm quite clear on your point.

My point is that the hawks saw the labour dispute coming and positioned themselves to take advantage of it as best they could.

They were bad because they were cheap prior to that. It wasn't a case of being a contender and selling it off to become a contender again, sure, but it was most definitely a concerted effort to experience short term pain for long term gain, to be competitive in a new financial playing field.

[calumniate]

Looks like Hockey Ninja jinxed everything. Way to go Hockey Ninja

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm quite clear on your point.

My point is that the hawks saw the labour dispute coming and positioned themselves to take advantage of it as best they could.

They were bad because they were cheap prior to that. It wasn't a case of being a contender and selling it off to become a contender again, sure, but it was most definitely a concerted effort to experience short term pain for long term gain, to be competitive in a new financial playing field.

I see your point, it's wrong though. The Hawks tried against their own advantage (with hindsight mind you!) to restock with free agents. You chalk that up to wanting to get to the cap floor but that wasn't what anyone said when those free agents were signed. That would honestly be the first time anyone has chalked up those free agent signings as cap floor moves. You'd be the only one who thinks that.

[Flash Walken]

Once again, spending to the cap is not mutually exclusive to building through the draft.

The key determining factor on whether a team is rebuilding or not is their approach to draft picks.

44 picks in 4 years.

You don't sell to the point of having 17 draft picks in one year because you're trying to win now.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Flash, can you guide me through how those moves were only designed as moves to get the Blackhawks to the cap floor?

It would all be news to me. I quickly looked at capgeek but couldn't go back to 2005-2006 and going off memory I can't remember anyone suggesting those were cap moves at the time.

[opendoor]

The 05-06 Hawks weren't right at the floor, but they clearly needed to spend a bunch of money to become cap compliant for 05-06. Other than their big 4 free agent signings (Khabibulin, Aucoin, Spacek, and Lapointe) they only had about $13-15M committed for the rest of their team under a $23M floor and $39M cap. So they spent $15M on those guys and ended up around $28M-30M for the year.

It's also important to note that spending right at the floor didn't really happen back then. Even though they were only a little below the midpoint, Chicago had the 6th lowest payroll in the league in 05-06, spending less than teams like Phoenix, Nashville, New York Islanders, and Atlanta.

[stang]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

I initiated this thread here in 2010.
Can the Flames avoid the Oilers present fate?
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=88031

Wow, reading that link is kind of crazy. Flames fans blasting the Oilers for about to miss for the 4th year and get to draft Hall. Kinda weird with the Flames being in that spot today. Walter was damn near bang on in that thread.

"NO i don't see this team with Kipper, Iginla, Bork, Bouwmester, Reggie EVER being as bad as the Oilers, ever"

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Flash, can you guide me through how those moves were only designed as moves to get the Blackhawks to the cap floor?

It would all be news to me. I quickly looked at capgeek but couldn't go back to 2005-2006 and going off memory I can't remember anyone suggesting those were cap moves at the time.

From memory, after they signed Aucoin they were at a payroll of 19 million, the cap floor being 24 (?).

They aren't charles wang, pick up a goalie for 5 million cap hit and not pay him cap floor moves, but, SOMEONE has to get paid money, and someone has to be decent. You can't just throw out Keith and seabrook at 20 years old and expect them to play 25 minutes a night as a #1 defensemen. Just like you couldn't run with seth jones as your #1 guy next year without killing his development and being a laughing stock of an organization. Similarly, you can't trade Iginla and play Baertschi 21 minutes a night, either. If the Flames deal Iginla, I would expect they would sign someone in free agency to attempt to supplement the lost offense. Brad Richards for 9 years and 65 million? No. A legitimate top line guy for 5-6 million for 3-4 years? Sure.

The caps signed Chris Clark to an overpaid contract as a loser because someone has to get paid some money and not be killed on a nightly basis.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by stang

Wow, reading that link is kind of crazy. Flames fans blasting the Oilers for about to miss for the 4th year and get to draft Hall. Kinda weird with the Flames being in that spot today. Walter was damn near bang on in that thread.

"NO i don't see this team with Kipper, Iginla, Bork, Bouwmester, Reggie EVER being as bad as the Oilers, ever"

I'm almost as loathed here as Oilers fans but nobody can accuse me of being a blind homer and it appears the current team is the latter of the two scenarios I presented.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The last time the Flames missed the playoffs after making it the year before they didn't make it back for seven years. Some teams have been back and forth in the past six years making it, missing it, making it but for every team like that there's Edmonton, Toronto, Islanders, Tampa Bay, etc that go into prolonged stints of missing the playoffs every year. It's impossible to say which direction the Flames will take after missing the playoffs this year.

You could say that this was just a bad year, an abberation and there is enough talent that they will put it together next year. However you could also say that they just aren't good enough and with key players getting older and no upcoming young stars in the organization that this is simply a team trending downward and teams around them are getting better.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by stang

Wow, reading that link is kind of crazy. Flames fans blasting the Oilers for about to miss for the 4th year and get to draft Hall. Kinda weird with the Flames being in that spot today. Walter was damn near bang on in that thread.

"NO i don't see this team with Kipper, Iginla, Bork, Bouwmester, Reggie EVER being as bad as the Oilers, ever"

Easy, it's almost four years later, Bork and Regher are gone. Mach was talking about then.

[stang]

"Ever"

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by stang

"Ever"

Haha oh, so those comments would have last for 20 years when all those players retired?

II think you have a severe problem with comprehension and context.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by stang

"Ever"

So tell me when were the Flames with Kipper, Iginla, Bork, Bouwmester, and Reggie in the lineup as bad as the Oilers because I don't remember it.

Wouldn't we have multiple first overall picks in our lineup if that was the case?

[dammage79]

Cannot see the Oilers getting better anytime soon as they just hired scott howson as a scout. Hahahahaha.

[stang]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

So tell me when were the Flames with Kipper, Iginla, Bork, Bouwmester, and Reggie in the lineup as bad as the Oilers because I don't remember it.

Wouldn't we have multiple first overall picks in our lineup if that was the case?

You're 3 years behind the curve, like seriously. Take the first year the flames missed the playoffs (2009?) and the 2007 oilers and see how close their paths trend. That was Walters point in that thread.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by stang

You're 3 years behind the curve, like seriously. Take the first year the flames missed the playoffs (2009?) and the 2007 oilers and see how close their paths trend. That was Walters point in that thread.

Then you should stick to that instead of jumping on comments that you take out of context and don't understand.

Like seriously.