Give Irving the next few starts

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Teams that are trailing tend to have better shot differentials than teams that are leading due to the latter sitting back and protecting the lead. Over a small sample a poor performing team can have a better shot differential than they otherwise would simply by virtue of the fact that they've been playing from behind a lot.

Not saying that's what's behind the Flames' numbers, but I'd avoid reading too much into stats like that over a 5 game sample. These things usually take 20+ games to start to shake themselves out.

While that is true, it does not apply to the Flames this year.

The only game that the Flames were behind, and behind in shots, was the Nucks game. And by no means do I think the NUcks were sitting back protecting a lead - the Flames took over that game in the 3rd (and the Nucks only evened up the shots with a late 3rd period push back).

The Flames dominated early against the Sharks, Oilers and Avs. They started slowly against the Ducks for about 10 minutes, but then took over the game for the next 30 or so, before letting it slip in the 3rd.

Say what you want about them defensively this year, but they are full marks for offensive chances and the shots on goal stat.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Shrug... as I said above the flames are third in the league in Fewest Shots Against per game while having the 9th best shots for per game. I'd call that a good to very good performance collectively overall from the guys in front of him.

The only problem I see with looking solely at shots against stats is that it ignores how many of those shots have come from guys standing alone in the slot with nobody around them.

The Flames may be good at limiting shots this year (helps when teams take periods off against them) but they are awful at covering the opposition in their own zone and have left guys wide open in prime scoring areas far too much this year.

Kipper hasn't been great but he also hasn't been getting a ton of help from his team as well.

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Ramo/Brust/Taylor are all better than Irving. Winner of nothing. ever.

I know they say the Back-up goalie is usually the most popular guy on the team but now it seems the crappy minor league goalies get that title.

There is a good reason these guys aren't in the NHL and two of them have contracts with exactly 0 NHL teams despite all having a long history to show teams their "talents."

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by moon

The only problem I see with looking solely at shots against stats is that it ignores how many of those shots have come from guys standing alone in the slot with nobody around them.

The Flames may be good at limiting shots this year (helps when teams take periods off against them) but they are awful at covering the opposition in their own zone and have left guys wide open in prime scoring areas far too much this year.

Kipper hasn't been great but he also hasn't been getting a ton of help from his team as well.

Last night, Butler's horrible turnover. Bouwmeester+Butler leaving a guy all alone in front of the net.

Game 1 (and 2) Giordano completely fails to clear a pick / man immediately next to Kipper.

Anyone that has watched this game should have seen instance after instance of the d-zone break downs by the team.

It is great that the shot totals are in our favor. But like you say, there have been way to many breakdowns to say this team has been strong defensively.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by The Big Thirsty

What has Kipper ever won, and when is the last time he played a playoff game?

Well, a Vezina and Jennings...and was a finalist for the Hart.

And the last time he played a playoff game was 08-09, and just one of those 6 games is more than any of those other players combined.

Those other 3 don't even hold a candle to what Kipper has accomplished at the highest level of competition.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Last night, Butler's horrible turnover. Bouwmeester+Butler leaving a guy all alone in front of the net.

Game 1 (and 2) Giordano completely fails to clear a pick / man immediately next to Kipper.

Anyone that has watched this game should have seen instance after instance of the d-zone break downs by the team.

It is great that the shot totals are in our favor. But like you say, there have been way to many breakdowns to say this team has been strong defensively.

It was Sarich and Butler (just saying)

Yes, the defensive zone coverage has been terrible and the SOG statt can't reflect that.

The flip side is that the SOG stat has been low because the Flames have done a good job of keeping the puck in the other team's end.

(Two sides to every stat)

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

What have these guys ever won?

Brust has won a Calder Cup. And he won a playoff series with the monarchs. His DEL team went to the semi-finals last season.

Taylor was the Heat's goalie for their playoff series win last year.

Ramo has won a few playoff series in the past couple of years too.

Irving hasn't done anything as a pro. Don't expect him to magically change his character just because he pulls the flaming C on.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Brust has won a Calder Cup. And he won a playoff series with the monarchs.

Taylor was the Heat's goalie for their playoff series win last year.

Ramo has won a few playoff series in the past couple of years too.

Irving hasn't done anything as a pro. Don't expect him to magically change his character just because he pulls the flaming C on.

Great, now why isn't any of the 30 NHL teams out there looking to give out either of these 2 "prospects" a contract?

Why don't they have a NHL contract, instead of Irving?

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Great, now why isn't any of the 30 NHL teams out there looking to give out either of these 2 "prospects" a contract?

Why don't they have a NHL contract, instead of Irving?

Brust has been talking to NHL teams with his agent all season...

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Brust has been talking to NHL teams with his agent all season...

... and?

He might get his first NHL contract since half a decade? The last time was even considered to play in the NHL, he was Irving's age. Yet we should dump on Irving and be all over this 30 year old prospect, right?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by moon

I know they say the Back-up goalie is usually the most popular guy on the team but now it seems the crappy minor league goalies get that title.

There is a good reason these guys aren't in the NHL and two of them have contracts with exactly 0 NHL teams despite all having a long history to show teams their "talents."

The others you can argue but to try and say that Irving is better than Ramo is quite ridiculous just because Irving plays in the NHL instead. By your argument, before this season it should be clear that Blake Comeau is a much better player than Roman Cervenka. Ridiculous logic.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

While that is true, it does not apply to the Flames this year.

The only game that the Flames were behind, and behind in shots, was the Nucks game. And by no means do I think the NUcks were sitting back protecting a lead - the Flames took over that game in the 3rd (and the Nucks only evened up the shots with a late 3rd period push back).

The Flames dominated early against the Sharks, Oilers and Avs. They started slowly against the Ducks for about 10 minutes, but then took over the game for the next 30 or so, before letting it slip in the 3rd.

Say what you want about them defensively this year, but they are full marks for offensive chances and the shots on goal stat.

Looking at the numbers a little closer it seems to me that the Flames' shot advantages are coming almost entirely from special teams. 5 on 5 they're basically even through 5 games but they're outshooting the opposition by almost a 2:1 margin on special teams. If you look at their Fenwick numbers (ratio of goals/shots/missed shots between them and their opposition while 5 on 5) they're 18th in the league when the score is +/- 1 goal, so that's not really a sign of dominating possession.

But like I said above, these numbers mean almost nothing so early in the season so I wouldn't read a ton into anything either good or bad.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

... and?

He might get his first NHL contract since half a decade? The last time was even considered to play in the NHL, he was Irving's age. Yet we should dump on Irving and be all over this 30 year old prospect, right?

That would be a classic flames move.

Especially if done prior to the deadline hampering calgary's ability to make deals.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by moon

The only problem I see with looking solely at shots against stats is that it ignores how many of those shots have come from guys standing alone in the slot with nobody around them.

Sure, sure... there is such a thing as shot quality. But the questions I would pose then are...

1: Are goalies only expected to make routine saves?
2: If no, has Kipper been making an acceptable number of the non-routine saves?
3: Have the Flames been allowing an excessive number of non-routine shots?

I would propose that the answer to all three questions is probably "no".

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

The others you can argue but to try and say that Irving is better than Ramo is quite ridiculous just because Irving plays in the NHL instead. By your argument, before this season it should be clear that Blake Comeau is a much better player than Roman Cervenka. Ridiculous logic.

Honestly, I don't know crap about Ramo nor do I think anybody else here knows crap about Ramo. And, I don't think most people here even knew who Kari Ramo was a year ago.

I do remember, however, a year ago and 2 years ago and 3 years ago, hearing that Irving is the Flames best prospect (better then Backlund, better then Brodie)... and, I actually remember watching Irving play a NHL game and thought it was the best performance by a goalie in a Calgary Flames uniform not named Kiprusoff.

So, I'm not ready to cast off Irving for a couple of minor leaguers and call them winners and Irving a loser who will never win anything, when the ladder guy is in the NHL. That would be flat out stupid, after seeing so many minor league rockstars go through the Flames system (Martin Broshu, Curtis McElhinney...)

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

... and?

He might get his first NHL contract since half a decade? The last time was even considered to play in the NHL, he was Irving's age. Yet we should dump on Irving and be all over this 30 year old prospect, right?

Irving can't hack the AHL yet. Age has nothing to do with it. He loses the starting job every single year and yet, somehow, for no reason, you assume he's a better goalie than the guys who have outplayed him statistically and otherwise for the past two plus seasons at least?

Would someone in this forum for the love of god please explain the love for this failure of a first round draft pick? He only has a contract because of the optics. And you know their relationship is wearing thin, he's talked about going to Russia the past two summers.

I would like Irving if there was a reason to like him. But he is a medium AHL goalie at this stage of his career, and he's about to get lit up like a Christmas tree for all to see.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Irving can't hack the AHL yet. Age has nothing to do with it. He loses the starting job every single year and yet, somehow, for no reason, you assume he's a better goalie than the guys who have outplayed him statistically and otherwise for the past two plus seasons at least?

Well, me, Feaster, Hartley, Sutter, scouts... basically anyone involved the past year who had Irving in the NHL.

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Would someone in this forum for the love of god please explain the love for this failure of a first round draft pick? He only has a contract because of the optics. And you know their relationship is wearing thin, he's talked about going to Russia the past two summers.

Not talking about it, he was offered a contract and declined to try and make the NHL.

[moon]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

The others you can argue but to try and say that Irving is better than Ramo is quite ridiculous just because Irving plays in the NHL instead. By your argument, before this season it should be clear that Blake Comeau is a much better player than Roman Cervenka. Ridiculous logic.

There are some differences between Ramo and Cerevenka's situations that don't make them great comparables but in terms of Ramo-Irving, I am not sure exactly who is better but neither one has shown much more than the other and neither one has shown anything close to indicating that they can be more than a 10 game a year mediocre-bad back-up in the NHL.

Still much too early to say that Comeau isn't better than Cerevenka as well.

[moon]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Would someone in this forum for the love of god please explain the love for this failure of a first round draft pick? He only has a contract because of the optics. And you know their relationship is wearing thin, he's talked about going to Russia the past two summers.

I would like to see this love that people in this forum have for him.

It seems that people have said he shouldn't be canned for nothing and that he is better than a goalie nobody wanted on waivers and two career minor leaguers with no contracts from NHL teams.

That seems a long way from "love."

[moon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Sure, sure... there is such a thing as shot quality. But the questions I would pose then are...

1: Are goalies only expected to make routine saves?
2: If no, has Kipper been making an acceptable number of the non-routine saves?
3: Have the Flames been allowing an excessive number of non-routine shots?

I would propose that the answer to all three questions is probably "no".

If non-routine shots mean have they been allowing a lot of quality scoring chances I would say the answer is yes to number 3.

But I agree with the first two and did say that Kipper hasn't been good this year. But as alarming if not moreso is how bad the Flames defensive play has been this year because that is a team wide issue rather than one individual struggling. It seems more likely that Kipper turns it around than everybody on the team all improving.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by moon

If non-routine shots mean have they been allowing a lot of quality scoring chances I would say the answer is yes to number 3.

Not so much "a lot" but "excessive" meaning more so then is average... and it's hard to figure that out, that's why I said "probably no" before, since it's not a league tracked stat and even if it were I imagine there would be a non-universal definition of what constitutes a scoring chance (and then it just becomes a subjective matter of opinion not fact). For what it's worth Kent Wilson (Metrognome on this site) tracks scoring chances for Flames games and I believe he has the Flames outchancing their opposition thus far... it's just that their chances are going past the netminder more then ours are.

I'm not throwing in the towel on this season, in terms of overall team effort I think this is the best we've seen in years... but we're getting poor goaltending and if we're to make the playoffs then we need Kipper to provide at least league average goaltending (and he needs to start right eff'ing now).