First nations will blockade roads as part of 'Idle No More' protest

[polak]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Then you can correctly say "51% of polaks are unemployed bums". Just don't say "All polaks are unemployed bums". Most is just as dangerous a word because most people apply north of 85% to the word most.

I said more often then not.

I'm just illustrating how worked up people get about calling a spade a spade. Its racist to judge someone based on the color of their skin. It's not racist to judge them based on statistics.

This is why I'm not against profiling at place like airports. As long as its based on statistics.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by polak

How so?

If I'm going off hard evidence then how is it racist?

If you were to tell me that statistically, 51% of Polish people were unemployed or something and you actually had proof, I wouldn't call you a racist... It's a fact.

Reporting the fact isn't racist, extrapolating that fact to paint an entire race as having a certain quality is.

Saying "black males have the highest per capita incarceration rate in the US" is not racist. Saying "all blacks are criminals" is.

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by polak

How so?

If I'm going off hard evidence then how is it racist?

If you were to tell me that statistically, 51% of Polish people were unemployed or something and you actually had proof, I wouldn't call you a racist... It's a fact.

If you look at a Polish person, and your initial assumption is that he's unemployed because he is Polish, this is racist notwithstanding that you may have statistics to suggest you're more likely right than wrong, because you have associated a negative characteristic with a person based on their race that may or may not be true. I don't care if the statistic is 51% or 70% or 90%.

Now, on the other hand, looking at a statistic that says "51% of Polish people are unemployed according to this study", and saying that the Polish community should do something to address the unemployment issue faced by many members of said community is not racist. It is common sense.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

So "whiteys" (by whiteys I mean anyone nont FN) are beating FN woman more as a percentage than they are beating non FN women?

Assuming the job type and income level are factored in fairly as a % of the total population?

Do you have a link to any statistics. I assume since you replied "Absolutely" that you must have seen statistics somewhere for this.

No one referred to the ethnicity of the abusers (seems collateral to the main issue, no?)

But, yes, I have seen many statistics regarding violence against aboriginal women in Canada. Here are some found in two minutes of googling:

Aboriginal women are almost three times more likely than non Aboriginal women to report being the victim of a violent crime, including spousal violence.

In 2009, close to two-thirds of Aboriginal female victims were aged 15 to 34. This age group accounted for just under half of the total female Aboriginal population over age 15 living in the 10 provinces.

Among victims of spousal violence, six in 10 Aboriginal women reported being injured in the five years preceding the survey; the proportion was four in 10 among non-Aboriginal women.

Over three-quarters of non-spousal incidents of violence against Aboriginal women are not reported to police.

SOURCE: Status of Women Canada

In Canada, Aboriginal women are five times more likely than other women to die as a result of violence, and the numbers of Aboriginal women who are currently missing are staggering. This problem is not localized to one civic or provincial region, but is spread across the country; there are reports that more than 520 Aboriginal women are known to be either missing or murdered currently in Canada (NWAC 2008)

SOURCE: Amnesty International's No More Stolen Sisters

The deeply-entrenched discrimination and violence experienced by First Nations, Inuit and Métis women is by any measure one of Canada’s most serious and pressing human rights problems. A 1996 report prepared by the Canadian government documented that Indigenous women between the ages of 25 and 44 with status under the Indian Act, are five times more likely than other women in Canada to die from violence.11

In a 2004 survey, women who self-identified as Aboriginal reported rates
of violence, including domestic violence and sexual assault, 3.5 times higher than non-Aboriginal women.12

Critical factors contributing to this disproportionate threat of violence include the impacts of residential schools and other forced assimilation policies on Indigenous women’s status in their own communities, the systemic impoverishment and marginalization of Indigenous women in Canadian society, and deep-rooted attitudes of racism and sexism.
...
• A 2007 joint committee of government, Indigenous peoples, police and community groups in Saskatchewan reported that 60 percent of the long-term cases of missing women in the province are Indigenous, although Indigenous women make up only six percent of the population.17

SOURCE: Amnesty International's Unequal Rights: Ongoing concerns
about Discrimination against
Women in Canada

Surely, after high profile atrocities such as the Robert Pickton murders, this is not news to anyone?

[polak]

I should clarify when I mean "judge them based on statistics" I don't mean automatically assume that all natives are dropouts or that all polaks are unemployed.

I meant that as in, maybe if you're interviewing candidates for a job that requires a high school diploma, you ask a native applicant for a copy of his diploma where as in other situations you wouldn't.

That probably comes off as racist, but lets say hypothetically (this is a rough example) verifying diploma's is a costly task. Is it wrong to use statistics to save money?

Edit: I've been interested in starting a thread on profiling for a while after reading an article about the airport in israel. I just didn't want to start another gong show thread when we already have this one

[valo403]

Originally Posted by polak

I should clarify when I mean "judge them based on statistics" I don't mean automatically assume that all natives are dropouts or that all polaks are unemployed.

I meant that as in, maybe if you're interviewing candidates for a job that requires a high school diploma, you ask a native applicant for a copy of his diploma where as in other situations you wouldn't.

That probably comes off as racist, but lets hypothetically (this is a rough example) verifying diploma's is a costly task. Is it wrong to use statistics to save money?

That comes off as racist because it is. If you have a need to confirm the validity of someones credentials their race shouldn't be a factor. Are white people somehow more trustworthy? You'd believe it if a white guy said 'yep, high school grad' but not if the same line was said by a native?

Saw your edit: I think that security screening enters into an area where your expectation of being treated fairly should be lowered. It's an unfortunate situation, but we're talking about much higher stakes here. Every effort should be made to make any intrusions as minimal as possible, but I don't have issues with using intelligence in that way so long as it's done properly and authority isn't abused.

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Surely, after high profile atrocities such as the Robert Pickton murders, this is not news to anyone?

Hold up. You post a bunch of very pertinent information that is well sourced and then you compare a systemic problem to the Pickton murders? Are you serious? Way to undermine a valid point with sensationalism. The issues facing aboriginal women are a product of larger social problems in this country in the same way that the ridiculously high rate of incarceration among first nations is. It has nothing to do with there being a lot of psychopathic murderers targeting FN women specifically.

[return to the red]

nevermind long day damnit

[polak]

Originally Posted by valo403

That comes off as racist because it is. If you have a need to confirm the validity of someones credentials their race shouldn't be a factor. Are white people somehow more trustworthy? You'd believe it if a white guy said 'yep, high school grad' but not if the same line was said by a native?

Lets say 85% of white people in Calgary over the age of 19 have their diploma and only 40% or whatever the number was of the native population does. You only have a finite amount of resources to verify diplomas... whose diplomas do you check?

We both know the logical answer. Is that still racist?

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by polak

I should clarify when I mean "judge them based on statistics" I don't mean automatically assume that all natives are dropouts or that all polaks are unemployed.
I meant that as in, maybe if you're interviewing candidates for a job that requires a high school diploma, you ask a native applicant for a copy of his diploma where as in other situations you wouldn't. That probably comes off as racist

Yep, you're right, that's still racist.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteEbola

Polak can be a derogatory term.

Of course it can, hence why I used it, for its ironic comedic purposes in this thread.

As to statistics, young white males have been by far the largest perpetrators of mass shootings in America. Obviously all young white males deserve to be profiled, since the stats don't lie.

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by polak

We both know the logical answer. Is that still racist?

Yes.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by polak

I should clarify when I mean "judge them based on statistics" I don't mean automatically assume that all natives are dropouts or that all polaks are unemployed.

I meant that as in, maybe if you're interviewing candidates for a job that requires a high school diploma, you ask a native applicant for a copy of his diploma where as in other situations you wouldn't.

That probably comes off as racist, but lets say hypothetically (this is a rough example) verifying diploma's is a costly task. Is it wrong to use statistics to save money?

Edit: I've been interested in starting a thread on profiling for a while after reading an article about the airport in israel. I just didn't want to start another gong show thread when we already have this one

Well, it is almost certainly a violation of s. 7 of the Alberta Human Rights Act:

Discrimination re employment practices
7(1) No employer shall
(a) refuse to employ or refuse to continue to employ any
person, or
(b) discriminate against any person with regard to
employment or any term or condition of employment,
because of the race, religious beliefs, colour, gender, physical
disability, mental disability, age, ancestry, place of origin, marital
status, source of income, family

Look at your hypothetical from the perspective of first nations applicants. You are adding an additional employment barrier solely because of their race, an unchangeable and deeply personal characteristic. Does that seem fair to you?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by polak

Lets say 85% of white people in Calgary over the age of 19 have their diploma and only 40% or whatever the number was of the native population does. You only have a finite amount of resources to verify diplomas... whose diplomas do you check?

We both know the logical answer. Is that still racist?

Yes

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by return to the red

These stats just talk about general violence against aboriginal women.

Yes, exactly. And that is exactly what Chief Spence called for: an inquiry into violence against aboriginal women. Am I misssing something?

[return to the red]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Yes, exactly. And that is exactly what Chief Spence called for: an inquiry into violence against aboriginal women. Am I misssing something?

No, I altered my original post.

I think I better stay clear from posting in this thread.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

Hold up. You post a bunch of very pertinent information that is well sourced and then you compare a systemic problem to the Pickton murders? Are you serious? Way to undermine a valid point with sensationalism. The issues facing aboriginal women are a product of larger social problems in this country in the same way that the ridiculously high rate of incarceration among first nations is. It has nothing to do with there being a lot of psychopathic murderers targeting FN women specifically.

Pickton didn't target First Nations women specifically. He targeted vulnerable women, i.e., drug addicted prostitutes who the police didn't care about (the majority of whom happen to be first nations, due of course to those same broad social problems that you referred to.) That is why the Pickton murders are an excellent example of the appalling problem of violence against first nations and aboriginal women in Canada.

[morgin]

Originally Posted by Rerun

People's opinions and prejudices are colored by their experiences in life.

Let me tell you my story...

I grew up in southern Ontario... Belleville to be exact. Its a town just off Lake Ontario about 120 miles east of Toronto. At the time I lived there it had a population of about 30,000. It was situated very close to the Tyendenaga Reserve (Mohawk).

The high school I went to had numerous native students that were bused in from the reserve, just as many non native students were bused in from the surrounding countryside.

Not once in the 5 years that I attended my high school did I see an incident of racism towards a native student. They were just like everyone else... except their name was either Green, Maracle, or Brant. They came to school ever day, did their homework every day, graduated like everyone else, and some, like some non-natives, went on to post-secondary education. They played high school sports, hung out with different groups of people, and had various interests just like all the non-natives at my school.

In short, I didn't see them as being anything different. They were just fellow students.

Then I moved to Calgary in my early 20's in the late '70s. I was in for a bit of an eye opener. It was the first time I saw passed out drunks in public downtown parks... some were white but the majority were native. Chances are if I was being pestered for money, it was a native that was doing it. Now this wouldn't seem odd if natives were the majority in the Calgary population... but they weren't.... far from it.

So unsurprisingly, my opinions have changed over the years from the opinions that I had in my teens and early 20's living in Ontario to those that I have now, living in Calgary and elsewhere. As to living elsewhere, I lived in Yellowknife for a short while. I worked for NWT Airways. I remember one day I asked someone there why there were no Dene working for the company. I was told they tried that a few times but usually when they hired someone it worked out fine until payday.... and I'll stop there because I'll be labeled a racist for saying what I was told... even if its the truth.

So thats my story... the good and the bad. I'm sorry I have negative feelings towards some natives... it wasn't always like that for me. I have a couple of native Facebook friends from back home in Belleville and I have some guilty feelings when ever I talk to them, because of the way I feel about some of their "cousins" out here.

I grew up on the island. Same experience. My highschool was surrounded by reserves (Tsartlip and Tsawout mostly, I believe) and I had a lot of native kids in my classes. Same deal - just as hard-working/lazy as any other high school student, played sports, were in band, came to parties/hosted parties, graduated, went to post-secondary, etc. I actually used to hang out a lot on some of the reserves because they had some great coastal properties.

It wasn't until I came to AB that I really understood Canadian racism towards first nation people. It is a whole other ballgame here (and from what I've been told, in the rest of the prairies and northern ontario). I don't know enough about the situation on AB reserves to have a qualified opinion about anything, but I will say this - when I go back to visit family, it's always a shocking reminder how different First Nation communities across this country can be. I always kinda felt like people who grew up in AB had a hard time believing me when I described reserves out on the island.

[polak]

See. Sensitivity clouds logic.

In my scenerio, in no way is the person that is native and being asked to provide proof being hurt or really affected in any unexpected way.

The ad stated that a High School Diploma is a requirement and they should be prepared to provide it. Budget constraints say you can only do so many checks and you have statistical evidence saying that the person that is native has a smaller chance of posesing that diploma (or whatever race, or burden of proof you want to interchange into this argument, You could make it polish people and malaysians needing to prove they can actually hula dance for all I care).

When they walk through your door, there is an equal chance that either group is lying. They all give outstanding interviews. The only thing you have to base your decision on is numbers and apperance and your choice really makes no impact on the persons life.

Why on earth wouldn't you use what you have to help you make a choice on who to verify?

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Of course it can, hence why I used it, for its ironic comedic purposes in this thread.

Thats also why I used it.
As you can tell I'm pretty laissez faire about this crap. People are too sensitive.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

As to statistics, young white males have been by far the largest perpetrators of mass shootings in America. Obviously all young white males deserve to be profiled, since the stats don't lie.

Yup. If you only had time to check a finite amount of people, why on earth wouldn't you use such knowledge to your advantage? The people you profile aren't losing anything or being hurt in anyway outside of maybe being slightly offended that someone had the balls to profile. They'll get over it.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by polak

See. Sensitivity clouds logic.

In my scenerio, in no way is the person that is native and being asked to provide proof being hurt or really affected in any unexpected way.

The ad stated that a High School Diploma is a requirement and they should be prepared to provide it. Budget constraints say you can only do so many checks and you have statistical evidence saying that the person that is native has a smaller chance of posesing that diploma (or whatever race, or burden of proof you want to interchange into this argument, You could make it polish people and malaysians needing to prove they can actually hula dance for all I care).

When they walk through your door, there is an equal chance that either group is lying. They all give outstanding interviews. The only thing you have to base your decision on is numbers and apperance and your choice really makes no impact on the persons life.

Why on earth wouldn't you use what you have to help you make a choice on who to verify?



Thats also why I used it.
As you can tell I'm pretty laissez faire about this crap. People are too sensitive.



Yup. If you only had time to check a finite amount of people, why on earth wouldn't you use such knowledge to your advantage? The people you profile aren't losing anything or being hurt in anyway outside of maybe being slightly offended that someone had the balls to profile. They'll get over it.

Um, aren't the people you're profiling (who are likely unemployed if they are applying for your position) being forced to incur the cost of an apparently very expensive diploma verification procedure (indeed, so expensive that the prospective employer cannot even afford to do it!)? How is that not losing anything or not being hurt? Presumably at least some of these applicants (especially because aboriginal and first nations families are on average less wealthy than non-aboriginal families) will not be able to afford this verification process, and will therefore also lose out on the employment opportunity all together.

But hey, I guess its not big deal as long as you aren't aboriginal.