TSN says Flames 14th

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

my problem? you are the one calling posts "bloody stupid" not me.

I am putting forward an opinion, no different than anyone putting up an opinion. Transplant and I clearly have a difference of opinion, however, I respect and can respond to his points, and him to mine without getting into personal attacks.

Ho boy, I really went personal there.

And your response, nope, not personal at all.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Ho boy, I really went personal there.

And your response, nope, not personal at all.

and my response? that was a personal attack in your mind?

"Not too mention a intellectually lazy retort.

Stupid is as stupid does.

want to make an actual counter point? I am all ears? Want to throw around insults instead? I can do that to."

doesn't seem to be any more personal that your original post does it?

[Ashasx]

You should go vote for Corban Knight.

[SeoulFire]

Take it to PM.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I have a bet on a round of golf with the offending jersey, a dinner with the offending jersey and a day at work with the offending jersey all if the Oilers finish higher.

Do NOT let me down flames

Will you be posting pics of you in the Oilers jersey?

[oldschoolcalgary]

nah, i like reading the ad hominems - they amuse me

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by stang

Haha I've had it for almost 2 years straight (lost some avatar bets in that time)

Makes me laugh every time I think about where I got it...
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=84720

I was referring to Rhettzky's Walking Dead avatar, but yours isn't that bad either.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

dude you are #####ing hilarious!

so a fan always has to be myopic? they have to buy into the party line? I say one thing about why TSN thinks the Flames finish 14.

Obviously you, somehow believe every move Calgary has made is gold! And they'll finish what? 8th? 5th? So, you are smarter than guys that do this for a living and guys that actually played in the NHL.

I come here to amuse myself, watching people like you, get all in a twitter because the media calls it like they see it. Now THAT is gold.

It'll be even more fun if the Flames finish out of the playoffs - that'll probably be a NHL conspiracy because how much they "hate" us right!?

This ought to be fun!

As I recall, fans aren't people hoping, and wanting this team to flop.. if that excites you, just so you can be one of the few d*cks that can come on here and throw it in people's faces to boost your ego, then that's not being a fan, just a d*ck, lol. We have enough Canucks fans for that.

I've followed this team for every televised game and then some minus a few, since '03, and before that had season tickets for a few years (when there was not much winning to be seen).

I've seen this team during the rotten, low times, and since. I've bashed Darryl and his poor management ways and what they did to this team and thought Keenan was a joke for being an impulsive and unstructured coach. I've been very critical of Iginla until recently for sitting on the blue line and not back checking enough (though he's tried). In fact, despite his goal totals, it's very obvious to anyone who can remember that he rarely skates through the middle and the high traffic areas controlling the play like he used to, which is why I think if anything, his recent play is a bit overrated. It's not all "rosy" from my perspective. And you're just assuming and deluded if you're saying that. I would have preferred we went out and got a bigger forward than Hudler, that we'd got some help at C like a Mueller. And I disagree with letting Jokinen go. I thought we should have found a way to deal Bouw to the Red Wings. I'm not content having him on the blue line as is... And so on..

However, at the end of the day, those are the moves the team chose to go with. And it's not like there AREN'T things to like about them. There is as much possibility of success for their new additions as failure. And when it comes down to it, it IS about the crest on the front and you've gotta support the team, simply because you are a fan. Especially just coming into a season. What is there to be s**tting bricks about when they haven't even lost a game yet? This is what I don't get. People like you guys, not even giving the team a chance. Just as you think there might be little merit to be getting overly optimistic about the team's chances coming into this season as they haven't proven anything yet, there equally isn't enough merit to trash this team before it's even stepped on the ice, when it hasn't even had a chance to "suck" yet. Why don't you give them a chance first, especially if you're this "fan" you claim to be?

I think the fans you're ripping on are simply looking for the positives because they actually want to see this team succeed. Which is not unusual for a fan, wouldn't you say? Well if you're looking for a team that you can predict will fail year after year before the season has even begun, then sir, the Oilers are the team for you!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So detroit DID want to re-sign him then.....just not at the rate he was offered in Calgary?

You're quoting an article from before last season (where he had 25 goals, 2nd on the team)?

I remember reading an article from a Detroit paper regarding the Bouwmeester rumours (sorry, no link - it was a while ago now) and as I recall, Holland said they had made an offer to Hudler - for some reason, I think it was $3M - but they didn't want to go to $4M. He then said something about having to wait to see whether or not they made the right choice.

Bottom line though is that players have a price. To suggest that a team had no interest to re-sign a player that had a career year and was their second leading scorer is pretty suspect, unless there were other significant circumstances (which I have not heard of in this case).

[Hockey]

I have a feeling that Flames finish anywhere between 7th and 10th. Iginla gets off to a good start and Kipper plays like his usual self and leads the Flames in a battle for the final playoff spot.

[moon]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

As I recall, fans aren't people hoping, and wanting this team to flop.. if that excites you, just so you can be one of the few d*cks that can come on here and throw it in people's faces to boost your ego, then that's not being a fan, just a d*ck, lol. We have enough Canucks fans for that.

I've followed this team for every televised game and then some minus a few, since '03, and before that had season tickets for a few years (when there was not much winning to be seen).

I've seen this team during the rotten, low times, and since. I've bashed Darryl and his poor management ways and what they did to this team and thought Keenan was a joke for being an impulsive and unstructured coach. I've been very critical of Iginla until recently for sitting on the blue line and not back checking enough (though he's tried). In fact, despite his goal totals, it's very obvious to anyone who can remember that he rarely skates through the middle and the high traffic areas controlling the play like he used to, which is why I think if anything, his recent play is a bit overrated. It's not all "rosy" from my perspective. And you're just assuming and deluded if you're saying that. I would have preferred we went out and got a bigger forward than Hudler, that we'd got some help at C like a Mueller. And I disagree with letting Jokinen go. I thought we should have found a way to deal Bouw to the Red Wings. I'm not content having him on the blue line as is... And so on..

However, at the end of the day, those are the moves the team chose to go with. And it's not like there AREN'T things to like about them. There is as much possibility of success for their new additions as failure. And when it comes down to it, it IS about the crest on the front and you've gotta support the team, simply because you are a fan. Especially just coming into a season. What is there to be s**tting bricks about when they haven't even lost a game yet? This is what I don't get. People like you guys, not even giving the team a chance. Just as you think there might be little merit to be getting overly optimistic about the team's chances coming into this season as they haven't proven anything yet, there equally isn't enough merit to trash this team before it's even stepped on the ice, when it hasn't even had a chance to "suck" yet. Why don't you give them a chance first, especially if you're this "fan" you claim to be?

I think the fans you're ripping on are simply looking for the positives because they actually want to see this team succeed. Which is not unusual for a fan, wouldn't you say? Well if you're looking for a team that you can predict will fail year after year before the season has even begun, then sir, the Oilers are the team for you!

LOL that garbage if you don't blindly support the Flames you aren't a real fan argument is always fun to read. The personal attacks thrown in are a nice touch as well.

Throwing in the you don't want the team to win if you don't think they should be picked to be in the play-offs is a great one as well. Plenty of fans of the Flames can think they are going to do poor while at the same time hoping they do well. I personally hope the team goes 48-0 and then 16-0 in the play-offs with Iginla winning the Hart and Art Ross, Bouwmeester the Norris, Kipper the Vezina and Baertschi the Calder. Just because I don't think that is likely to happen doesn't mean I want it to happen any less or that I am less of a fan that needs to cheer for another team.

[Enoch Root]

So to summarize the 'experts' views on Hudler:

Plays 2nd line on the vaulted Red Wings, potting 25 goals. They don't re-sign him so he sucks. Calgary signs him so he is obviously over-valued and over-paid.

Calgary puts him on the 3rd line and the experts declare that the Flames lack talent.

Detroit, after losing the offense of Hudler, sign Brunner. Experts declare brilliant signing and say 'watch out for this guy - he led the Swiss league in scoring last year'.

Meanwhile, the Flames sign Cervenka - who was MUCH more sought after and was higher-touted - and they are grasping at straws and he is declared 'unproven'.

So Detroit loses a 2nd liner and their second highest goal scorer, and brings in a guy who has never playes in the NHL. Meanwhile, they lose a generational talent on defense. No worries -all good.

The Flames ADD that 2nd liner, as well as another player who any rational person has to rank at least as highly as Brunner, and puts both of these players on their 3rd line.

Meanwhile, instead of losing an all-world defenseman, the Flames add a top 3 defenseman that fills a massive hole they had - a RH shot to generate offense from the D.

Experts declare: Detroit will make the playoffs, Calgary does not have enough talent and should blow it up.

I don't suspect conspiracies or anything silly like that, but I do demand that they put in some kind of effort and actually deliver a good product (analysis being the product here)

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

As I recall, fans aren't people hoping, and wanting this team to flop.. if that excites you, just so you can be one of the few d*cks that can come on here and throw it in people's faces to boost your ego, then that's not being a fan, just a d*ck, lol. We have enough Canucks fans for that.

I've followed this team for every televised game and then some minus a few, since '03, and before that had season tickets for a few years (when there was not much winning to be seen).

I've seen this team during the rotten, low times, and since. I've bashed Darryl and his poor management ways and what they did to this team and thought Keenan was a joke for being an impulsive and unstructured coach. I've been very critical of Iginla until recently for sitting on the blue line and not back checking enough (though he's tried). In fact, despite his goal totals, it's very obvious to anyone who can remember that he rarely skates through the middle and the high traffic areas controlling the play like he used to, which is why I think if anything, his recent play is a bit overrated. It's not all "rosy" from my perspective. And you're just assuming and deluded if you're saying that. I would have preferred we went out and got a bigger forward than Hudler, that we'd got some help at C like a Mueller. And I disagree with letting Jokinen go. I thought we should have found a way to deal Bouw to the Red Wings. I'm not content having him on the blue line as is... And so on..

However, at the end of the day, those are the moves the team chose to go with. And it's not like there AREN'T things to like about them. There is as much possibility of success for their new additions as failure. And when it comes down to it, it IS about the crest on the front and you've gotta support the team, simply because you are a fan. Especially just coming into a season. What is there to be s**tting bricks about when they haven't even lost a game yet? This is what I don't get. People like you guys, not even giving the team a chance. Just as you think there might be little merit to be getting overly optimistic about the team's chances coming into this season as they haven't proven anything yet, there equally isn't enough merit to trash this team before it's even stepped on the ice, when it hasn't even had a chance to "suck" yet. Why don't you give them a chance first, especially if you're this "fan" you claim to be?

I think the fans you're ripping on are simply looking for the positives because they actually want to see this team succeed. Which is not unusual for a fan, wouldn't you say? Well if you're looking for a team that you can predict will fail year after year before the season has even begun, then sir, the Oilers are the team for you!

i, like you, have been following the Flames long before the Cup run, and found my way to CP as a result of the official Flames message board implosion following 2004.

now with respect to your post - a fan can still root for a team, even tho they don't think they will be very good - pointing out there flaws does not mean you don't also hope for the best.

the original post was making light of the conspiracy that many Flames fans suggest, every time prediction time comes around and the Flames are picked to finish poorly. The flaws cited are reasonable questions that many analysts probably have and therefore qualify the 14th place finish. This is a team that finished 9th last year, so the adjective of not very good already has standing.

will there be a sense of schadenfreude if the Flames crash and burn? probably, especially against those fans whose fanaticism leads to ad hominems rather than actual discussion or debate.

That said, characterizing people that pick the Flames to do poorly as "non fans" is divisive and simply incorrect.

[JazzyFlame]

let them be the underdoggies

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So to summarize the 'experts' views on Hudler:

Plays 2nd line on the vaulted Red Wings, potting 25 goals. They don't re-sign him so he sucks. Calgary signs him so he is obviously over-valued and over-paid.

Calgary puts him on the 3rd line and the experts declare that the Flames lack talent.

Detroit, after losing the offense of Hudler, sign Brunner. Experts declare brilliant signing and say 'watch out for this guy - he led the Swiss league in scoring last year'.

Meanwhile, the Flames sign Cervenka - who was MUCH more sought after and was higher-touted - and they are grasping at straws and he is declared 'unproven'.

So Detroit loses a 2nd liner and their second highest goal scorer, and brings in a guy who has never playes in the NHL. Meanwhile, they lose a generational talent on defense. No worries -all good.

The Flames ADD that 2nd liner, as well as another player who any rational person has to rank at least as highly as Brunner, and puts both of these players on their 3rd line.

Meanwhile, instead of losing an all-world defenseman, the Flames add a top 3 defenseman that fills a massive hole they had - a RH shot to generate offense from the D.

Experts declare: Detoit will make the playoffs, Calgarydoes not have enough talent and should blow it up.

I don't suspect conspiracies or anything silly like that, but I do demand that they put in some kind of effort and actually deliver a good product (analysis being the product here)

The only reason IMO that people are saying Detroit will make it is because of Zetterberg, Datysuk, and Babcock.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So to summarize the 'experts' views on Hudler:

Plays 2nd line on the vaulted Red Wings, potting 25 goals. They don't re-sign him so he sucks. Calgary signs him so he is obviously over-valued and over-paid.

Calgary puts him on the 3rd line and the experts declare that the Flames lack talent.

Detroit, after losing the offense of Hudler, sign Brunner. Experts declare brilliant signing and say 'watch out for this guy - he led the Swiss league in scoring last year'.

Meanwhile, the Flames sign Cervenka - who was MUCH more sought after and was higher-touted - and they are grasping at straws and he is declared 'unproven'.

So Detroit loses a 2nd liner and their second highest goal scorer, and brings in a guy who has never playes in the NHL. Meanwhile, they lose a generational talent on defense. No worries -all good.

The Flames ADD that 2nd liner, as well as another player who any rational person has to rank at least as highly as Brunner, and puts both of these players on their 3rd line.

Meanwhile, instead of losing an all-world defenseman, the Flames add a top 3 defenseman that fills a massive hole they had - a RH shot to generate offense from the D.

Experts declare: Detoit will make the playoffs, Calgarydoes not have enough talent and should blow it up.

I don't suspect conspiracies or anything silly like that, but I do demand that they put in some kind of effort and actually deliver a good product (analysis being the product here)

Perhaps when the Flames show the ability to continually make the play-offs year after year despite losing guys and bringing in new guys they might get the same respect that the Red Wings.

With Holland, Babcock and a better roster than the Flames the Red Wings earn the benefit of the doubt and with 3 straight non-play-off appearances and a weak roster the Flames earn their spot as projected out of the play-offs.

It is a good effort put in and a very good product that they are delivering.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by moon

Perhaps when the Flames show the ability to continually make the play-offs year after year despite losing guys and bringing in new guys they might get the same respect that the Red Wings.

With Holland, Babcock and a better roster than the Flames the Red Wings earn the benefit of the doubt and with 3 straight non-play-off appearances and a weak roster the Flames earn their spot as projected out of the play-offs.

It is a good effort put in and a very good product that they are delivering.

There it is again - it's the Red Wings, so...

I expect that from fans - I expect a little more analysis from experts.

Re 'better roster': let's see you back that up - their roster looks paper thin to me. All anyone seems to be able to come up with is: Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Sorry, but in the NHL - and especially in the West where at least 12 teams are in contention for the playoffs, 2 players and a coach and a GM doesn't cut it.

That's like saying: Perry, Getzlaf and Ryan. Sure, arguably the best line in hockey - but how's that been working out for them lately?

[dammage79]

Didn't want to quote but a massively brilliant couple of posts here by Enoch Root, thanks!

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There it is again - it's the Red Wings, so...

I expect that from fans - I expect a little more analysis from experts.

Re 'better roster': let's see you back that up - their roster looks paper thin to me. All anyone seems to be able to come up with is: Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Sorry, but in the NHL - and especially in the West where at least 12 teams are in contention for the playoffs, 2 players and a coach and a GM doesn't cut it.

That's like saying: Perry, Getzlaf and Ryan. Sure, arguably the best line in hockey - but how's that been working out for them lately?

Tend to disagree with the bolded. A great coach can turn a very average roster into a playoff team, like Tippet in Phoenix.

[boggledepot]

Originally Posted by moon

Perhaps when the Flames show the ability to continually make the play-offs year after year despite losing guys and bringing in new guys they might get the same respect that the Red Wings.

With Holland, Babcock and a better roster than the Flames the Red Wings earn the benefit of the doubt and with 3 straight non-play-off appearances and a weak roster the Flames earn their spot as projected out of the play-offs.

It is a good effort put in and a very good product that they are delivering.

This is absolutely correct. The Red Wings have consistently proven they deserve the benefit of the doubt, whereas the Flames have done little to warrant it.

However, I will say the media has done little for us giving them the benefit of the doubt too. It's not that they are constantly wrong, rather sometimes we have to regard such analysis with a degree of skepticism.

With respects to the media (especially Bell and Rogers), it is their job to generate interest and sell the NHL brand. There isn't a conspiracy against the Flames, however the team is far more interesting when it is struggling, thus creating debate about gutting the franchise.