Mandatory sentencing for marijuana went into effect today

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

Is there any chance that the complete legalization of pot and in-store sales would actually increase the cost? i.e. Canada's high tax rates for alcohol/tobbaco.

Or is the idea (for legalization advocates) to have in-store sales as well as people growing out of their homes and selling privately under the table?

The comparison to home brewed wine/beer is very apt for this discussion.

As the name implies, 'weed' is relatively easy to grow, just as it is relatively easy to ferment something into a potable alcoholic substance.

However, most of us are simply uninterested in drinking terrible home brews. We ALL know someone who brews beer that is, shall we say, less than palatable.

Like most things of quality, it takes an experienced hand, dedication of time and resources to produce a quality substance. Marijuana is no different.

So, while I imagine that were it legalized, many many people would try their hand at growing it, the vast majority would be unimpressed with the result and would grow more as a hobby to supplement whatever it is they buy from the store, in the same way many people brew their own beer and drink it amongst the other delicious brews they enjoy most of the time.

There isn't much stopping me from say, sewing my own bedsheets.

Unless that's a personal hobby though, I'm going to go to the store.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Hatter

Prices would likely go down I believe. The high cost of pot comes from the legal danger of growing/selling, and not necessarily the cost of manufacture. Even with the government's high sin taxes, the cost would probably be lower.

I've read estimates as low as 5 dollars in Colorado per ounce once an effective legal apparatus is implemented.

[vektor]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I've read estimates as low as 5 dollars in Colorado per ounce once an effective legal apparatus is implemented.

no, that'd be selling at or near loss at 1/40th of what the price used to be

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

Is there any chance that the complete legalization of pot and in-store sales would actually increase the cost? i.e. Canada's high tax rates for alcohol/tobbaco.

Or is the idea (for legalization advocates) to have in-store sales as well as people growing out of their homes and selling privately under the table?

This is something I wrote out on the last page:

Originally Posted by HOOT

Let's assume it would cost $60/oz to produce, even though it should be much lower, cigarettes cost about $15 a carton to produce and that's almost 8oz of tobacco.

Carton of Marijuana(1oz) - 8 Packs(1/8oz):

Cost to Manufacture: $60.00
Federal Excise Duty: $4.26
Provincial 'Tobacco' Tax (BC): $55.50
Wholesale Margin (10%): $11.98
Total Wholesale Cost: $131.74

Cost Per 'Pack' (1/8oz): $16.47
Retail Markup (20%): $3.29
HST (BC): $2.37
Total Price/Pack: $22.13

Few things to note:

- Federal Excise Tax $2.13 for tobacco
- Provincial Tobacco Tax (BC) is $37.00 for tobacco
- Wholesale Margin is 6% for tobacco
- Retail Markup is 13% for tobacco
- HST (12%) isn't charged on tobacco

Currently 1/8oz costs an average of $40-50. So for their to be a profitable black market the government would really need put excessive taxes on marijuana, even more than the 1.5-2x I estimated compared to cigarettes. Now if they actually taxed it like tobacco and cost to manufacture is closer to the real thing, we would be looking at ~$10.35 for 1/8oz to the consumer.

Assuming the government used the taxes and profit margins for marijuana that I listed above you would be looking at ~$6,000,000,000 in tax revenue, $1,200,000,000 in sales for the manufacture and $330,000,000 in retail sales. Currently right now that money goes into the pockets of organized crime.

So I guess the question is, who do you want to have $7.5b in their pockets, government and tax paying companies or criminals?

[vektor]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The effects of any drug or liquor or cigarettes when you get that high feelingor whatever is your bodies way of screaming, you're poisoning me you're poisoning me.

Untrue, the average body can metabolize about 1 beer in an hour. The initial feeling isn't poisoning because the cells aren't being negatively effected because the ethanol is still being metabolized, it's when the body can't handle it anymore that it starts to become poison. Works the same for THC, the feeling of being high is not the body screaming it's being poisoned. The headache from smoking too much or the ridiculous hangovers from getting hammered are the signs that you poisoned yourself.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I've read estimates as low as 5 dollars in Colorado per ounce once an effective legal apparatus is implemented.

Gram?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Gram?

I believe they were referencing the cost of production.

What the retail markup would be is likely dependent on market forces.

[Komskies]

Originally Posted by HOOT

We are allowing them to cheat the economic system by giving a fake value to a plant. Outside of gold and platinum how many commodities go for $200/oz?

Saffron too!

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I believe they were referencing the cost of production.

What the retail markup would be is likely dependent on market forces.

Sorry skipped what you had quoted. If that estimate is right that makes my numbers even better to show how the black market profits would be destroyed with mass production. They could sell an eighth for the cost of a pack of cigarettes and still have plenty of room for profit and taxes.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Komskies

Saffron too!

And inkjet cartridges.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

And inkjet cartridges.

Everyone knows that the ink in printer cartridges is made from Unicorn blood.

[flamesfever]

I see prostitution as a parallel to the marijuana industry. Organized crime is involved. Underage people are affected. Soft and hard drugs are associated etc. By and large it has been controlled by using the same methods used to control marijuana i.e. prosecute the users as well as the dealers. I believe there are many people who refrain from marijuana because of the fear of being caught, just the same as the people who would otherwise use prostitutes.

Making pot legal would be a first step in making hallucinogens legal. And although pot is one of the mildest of the group, I fear it may lead to the gradual, step by step, increase in use of many of the more harmful drugs. e.g. cocaine, amphetamines, etc. I believe studies have shown that the highest users of marijuana have a much greater risk of using the harder drugs, in order to achieve the higher highs.

It seems as soon as any substance or activity, that take advantage of the weakness in people, is legally commercialized on a large scale eg. cigarettes, alcohol, gambling etc. that some segment of society pays the price. Shouldn't we draw the line at the number of things?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Here's the problem with "drawing the line". Alcohol and tobacco are already proven to be much more harmful than pot, but they're consider not past the line. Tough sell right there. And this notion that pot is the gateway drug, well here's a test: Go to any random party this weekend involving drinking, and one involving pot. Guess which one is 50 (or more) times more likely to have cocaine show up? From experience, cocaine almost inevitably shows up at drinking parties. When I chill with buds to toke, usually only Cheetos makes an appearance.

[Daradon]

^^^ Well that's probably because coke and pot don't really go well together, they are conflicting highs. As far as pot being a gateway drug, I could see it, even with my pro legalization feelings, but as you mentioned, any drug really is, legal or not.

In fact, I think it's more of a gateway drug BECAUSE it's illegal. I remember part of my reasoning being (there was many other things, and reasons, but this was one of the arguments going round my head in trying new drugs) 'well this illegal drug didn't hurt me, so this one should be safe too. If my parents and society are going to lie to me about the facts and effects of pot to me, how can they possibly know anything about all the other drugs? It's just propaganda coming from people who don't really know what they are talking about.'

Legalize marijuana and take away the mystique, and you take away some of it's argument as a gateway drug I think.

Course all of this could be fixed if parents and societal groups in general just talked to kids honestly about drugs in the first place. Not, 'one hit and you'll be in a gutter begging for money,' sort of scare tactics that some parents are guilty of and the US's war on drugs has been very guilty of.

[dissentowner]

Good, everyone knows that marijuana is the gateway drug to heroin.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Course all of this could be fixed if parents and societal groups in general just talked to kids honestly about drugs in the first place. Not, 'one hit and you'll be in a gutter begging for money,' sort of scare tactics that some parents are guilty of and the US's war on drugs has been very guilty of.

I agree parents should spend more time studying the facts, regarding the use of marijuana and other drugs by children, and should relay those facts to their kids. However, if they did, I don't think they could avoid scaring them.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I see prostitution as a parallel to the marijuana industry. Organized crime is involved. Underage people are affected. Soft and hard drugs are associated etc. By and large it has been controlled by using the same methods used to control marijuana i.e. prosecute the users as well as the dealers. I believe there are many people who refrain from marijuana because of the fear of being caught, just the same as the people who would otherwise use prostitutes.

Making pot legal would be a first step in making hallucinogens legal. And although pot is one of the mildest of the group, I fear it may lead to the gradual, step by step, increase in use of many of the more harmful drugs. e.g. cocaine, amphetamines, etc. I believe studies have shown that the highest users of marijuana have a much greater risk of using the harder drugs, in order to achieve the higher highs.

It seems as soon as any substance or activity, that take advantage of the weakness in people, is legally commercialized on a large scale eg. cigarettes, alcohol, gambling etc. that some segment of society pays the price. Shouldn't we draw the line at the number of things?

Some segmant of society pays the price wether or not something is illegal or legal. The real question that needs to be asked is whether the increase in problem use do to the product being legal outweighs the reduction in harm by it being legal. This equation ignores completely in assignment of moral value to a behaviour and also my strong libertarian sentiment that you should be able to do what you want to your self.

So for pot I think the sides of the scale are pretty one sided. 500 million in reduced court and police costs 6 billion in additional taxes to target at the problems legalization causes. Reduces organized crime, making it more difficult for kids to access etc etc. On the other hand you likely have increased use and with increased use comes increased problem use probably at a much lower % of total users. And the risks of problem use of marijuana are low. So you have a pretty one sided scale.

As you creep up the drug scale I think you have to re-evaluate at each drug.

[vektor]

Originally Posted by GGG

As you creep up the drug scale I think you have to re-evaluate at each drug.

Anything synthesized that is physically addictive, all of them should be illegal. Those are the ones that can literally be one hit and you are in the gutter a week later. No heroin, coke, meth, crack etc. etc.

No stimulant that makes you addicted on your first hit should be legal, that would just fly in the face of logic and would create huge problems. The ones open for debate in my opinion are drugs like LSD or DMT that are synthesized but can really destroy a brain.

Then there's drugs like salvia or peyote which I would say should be legal purely because they are used in spiritual practice and have been used by shamans since the beginning of man. Idiot teenagers taking too much of them should not justify taking away what are legitimately spiritual and sacred to significant portions of the world. I would say if the drug doesn't control your decision of whether you want to take it or not then it should be legal, nobodies going to do salvia freak out and then do it again but they will on meth.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I see prostitution as a parallel to the marijuana industry. Organized crime is involved. Underage people are affected. Soft and hard drugs are associated etc. By and large it has been controlled by using the same methods used to control marijuana i.e. prosecute the users as well as the dealers. I believe there are many people who refrain from marijuana because of the fear of being caught, just the same as the people who would otherwise use prostitutes.

I'm not going to get into the legalization of prostitution because that is another debate. However you are right in saying they are very similar. They are similar in the fact that we let criminals dictate the rules and profits around it. Maybe there would be less abuse or murders of women working the street if they felt that they had someone to turn to, not turn to someone who is going to arrest them. Or what can be even worse ignore and don't help them because of their lifestyle.

Making pot legal would be a first step in making hallucinogens legal. And although pot is one of the mildest of the group, I fear it may lead to the gradual, step by step, increase in use of many of the more harmful drugs. e.g. cocaine, amphetamines, etc.

If that was the case then making marijuana legal should be easy since we already allow people to use other, actually lethal drugs, every day in alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, pharmaceuticals. Not only that but there would not be the same type of movement.

Nearly 50% of all Canadian's have tried marijuana in their life. For drugs like cocaine, crack, speed, meth, hallucinogens, LSD, etc. are a combined 3-4% of Canadian who have used in the last year according to Health Canada.

How many legalize cocaine or meth movements have you heard of in the last decade like you have like marijuana?

I believe studies have shown that the highest users of marijuana have a much greater risk of using the harder drugs, in order to achieve the higher highs.

I would love to see that study because any stats I have seen show the opposite. In Canada they say 1 in 101 marijuana users use cocaine, and 1 in 104 use heroin. A study done in the Netherlands just a few years ago showed that 75% of people who say they have done marijuana have never done another drug, let alone do them regularly.

The gateway theory doesn't exist and the true gateway drugs are tobacco and alcohol, not marijuana. Most people get their hands on tobacco or alcohol before they get into marijuana or even the harder drugs.

Speaking from personal experience the only drugs I currently do are alcohol (rarely, although more lately) and marijuana. I've never touched cocaine, meth, crack, etc. My experience is very similar to most people I know where other drugs were done before marijuana. For me it went tobacco(12), alcohol(15), shrooms(17), ecstasy(18) then marijuana(19). I've done no other drugs in my life, I don't even take pharmaceuticals anymore because of the way they make me feel.

Now with most of my friends they did cocaine somewhere in there and most were before marijuana, usually the ecstasy stage. And the real kicker is (as I mentioned to you via PM) I've had access to marijuana my whole life, basically since I was born it's been around, but never had the urge to jump in and do it. I made my choice for my body and a lot of that had to do with the lies about marijuana. e.g. gateway, addiction, brain damage, lung cancer, etc.

It seems as soon as any substance or activity, that take advantage of the weakness in people, is legally commercialized on a large scale eg. cigarettes, alcohol, gambling etc. that some segment of society pays the price. Shouldn't we draw the line at the number of things?

A segment of the society is paying for it right now. Most marijuana users aren't drug addicted criminals, they are your average person looking for some enjoyment like you might with a 6 pack of beer or a bottle of vodka. The difference is the activity I choose to replace alcohol with can get me put in jail and/or criminal record of sorts.

When someone is doing something that is hurting no one the line should be drawn by that individual, not the government. If marijuana turns me into some drug addict who steals then I should be put in jail for stealing, not using a drug 99.9% of people can use without issue.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I agree parents should spend more time studying the facts, regarding the use of marijuana and other drugs by children, and should relay those facts to their kids. However, if they did, I don't think they could avoid scaring them.

I don't know what you mean by this. Not saying that in a rude way, I just need more clarification.