Mandatory sentencing for marijuana went into effect today

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Marijuana smoke has carcinogens in it too. If you burn anything, it breaks down into thousands of constituent parts and some of those are carcinogens. Heck, if you eat well done meat, the burnt portions contain polycyclic aromatics that are carcinogens.

I'm all for degrees of legalization, but there are health risks.

I think that there does have to be a deeper more conclusive study of the effects. But you could argue that smokes and booze were legalized with pretty haphazard information because they were pretty well legacy products.

I did find an interesting study on lung cancer and cannibas,

http://www.ersj.org.uk/content/31/2/280.full

And on long term brain damage

http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles...-addiction.htm

I think to an effect the argument that you can't overdose or it doesn't cause death is a bit of a false flag if the product is more of a damage creating product.

I think that grass does have an effect on developing minds and bodies, and I believe that heavy use is probably damaging, anything in moderation right?

While the argument is that booze and smokes are hideously damaging is a valid argument, but is it the proper thing to apply the same standards to grass? Or is the prudent thing to make sure that we really understand the long term effects of it.

Remember in the 50's most studies came out from the pro smoking side that tabacco had a whole bunch of wonderful health benefits, ask any pregnant woman from that time, and the anti smoking side was battered into submission.

Are we seeing the same thing here with grass?

I don't know.

I'm not against legalizing grass if there is an element of understanding the health risks and the dollar impact to the health care system.

I still stand by the assertation that smoking dope is not the healthiest thing in the world for teenagers either and everything possible should be done to restrict access to them.

Just my two cents.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Carrying other drugs increases his/her risk in the courts, raises their profile and exposes them to more nefarious portions of organized crime.

it's also a different clientèle and business apparatus.

I can see this applying to expensive drugs like cocaine, etc., however, what about the cheaply made and easily acquired drugs that we hear about young people using these days? Don't ask me what they might be, as I know next to zilch about the drug business.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I can see this applying to expensive drugs like cocaine, etc., however, what about the cheaply made and easily acquired drugs that we hear about young people using these days? Don't ask me what they might be, as I know next to zilch about the drug business.

The drugs that are the most popular in north america today are the ones that were the most popular 200-250 years ago.

Cocaine and it's variants, opium and it's variants, tobacco and it's variants, alcohol and marijuana.

Sure, there's pharmaceuticals now, but the best and most sought after ones are still opiate derivatives.

There's meth now and Ecstacy, but the big (illegal) ones are still Cocaine, Heroin and Weed.

Edit: kids these days are buying the same drugs you were. They're is less stigma surrounding them, so you hear about it more, but by and large they are similar products.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think the words highlighted above is one of the things that has bothered me i.e. the selling of pot may be combined with the offer to purchase other more damaging drugs.

This would be cut down, if not eliminated if it were to be purchases legally. Just like how many people go out and find moonshine when they can purchase some vodka for $20 down the street?

Also, I have seen young people with loads of potential, who get hooked on pot, simply fritter their lives away...unable to focus and commit themselves to doing anything productive for decades.

Again, how do you know these people would have lived productive lives otherwise? Are you saying that every person you know who doesn't smoke mairjuana is successful in life? There are plenty of examples of very successful people who smoke marijuana. They aren't successful because of marijuana, just like the people you know aren't unproductive because of it.

[flamesfever]

[QUOTE=HOOT;3930008]This would be cut down, if not eliminated if it were to be purchases legally. Just like how many people go out and find moonshine when they can purchase some vodka for $20 down the street?

That's true, but the dealers would probably substitute other drugs to make their easy money off the high seeking kids.

Also, if society condones it, albeit for adults, it may increase the number of kids doing it...just like cigarette smoking.

Besides, knowing what smoking is doing to our health costs, why would we encourage another potential health hazard.

[OffsideSpecialist]

nm

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Also, if society condones it, albeit for adults, it may increase the number of kids doing it...just like cigarette smoking.

1999 - 28% of 15-19 year olds smoked
2010 - 12% of 15-19 year olds smoked

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hc-ps/tobac-t...o-eng.php#tab1

Besides, knowing what smoking is doing to our health costs, why would we encourage another potential health hazard.

Because people still do it legal or not, so any tax revenue from it could go towards education, treatment and health costs. If that was a concern we would be fighting to ban alcohol and cigarettes in this country.

Going by studies done in countries like Portugal and Netherlands (where it is decriminalized), there was a decrease in use of marijuana, including youth. They are both the lowest users in Europe as well.

If you could show me that keeping it illegal will stop people from contining to use it I would agree with you. But that just isn't the case, and those health care costs will still be there sans revenue.

I'm not saying it would be perfect, I'm not saying that this will prevent another 15-19 year old from doing it, or that it would be easy. But it is well known that people in that age group can get illegal drugs easier than they can alcohol and cigarettes because they are controlled and regulated.

Education should be the number one concern legal or not, because even if it's illegal the youth can still get it, dealers don't check ID. It's up to the parents to teach their kids what is good and bad for them.

[GreenLantern2814]

[QUOTE=flamesfever;3930116]

Originally Posted by HOOT

This would be cut down, if not eliminated if it were to be purchases legally. Just like how many people go out and find moonshine when they can purchase some vodka for $20 down the street?

That's true, but the dealers would probably substitute other drugs to make their easy money off the high seeking kids.

Also, if society condones it, albeit for adults, it may increase the number of kids doing it...just like cigarette smoking.

Besides, knowing what smoking is doing to our health costs, why would we encourage another potential health hazard.

It has nothing to do with 'encouraging' anything. It has to do with recognizing that everyone who wants to do these things is going to do them regardless of their illegality. And seeing as most of them are not in the business of committing other crimes beyond simply indulging in their habit, it makes no sense to treat them as criminals.

Adults have the right to decide what they do to themselves as long as they do not harm other individuals or their property.

All other arguments are distracting from the this fundamental principle of the legalization movement. It's none of your business. If you don't want to do it, don't. If a grown up wants to do it, how dare anyone threaten them with arrest, incarceration and the myriad of other consequences to a victimless crime.

Lastly, we all have to die some time. This death-fearing culture has gone way overboard. If you do all the drugs in the world or live a healthy vegan diet, one way or another your body is gonna stop working. Once again, let grown ups decide how they want to live their lives.

[jayswin]

Wow, Flamesfever sure wants to believe what he believes about marijuana and possible legalization, depsite all evidence and studies to the contrary.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Wow, Flamesfever sure wants to believe what he believes about marijuana and possible legalization, depsite all evidence and studies to the contrary.

This is usually the case. People for the most part don't bother to involve themselves in the studies that have been done on this issue, so they just assume there is no possible way that drug legalization can be a 'good' thing.

I guess none of them listened in school when they taught us about prohibition.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Azure

This is usually the case. People for the most part don't bother to involve themselves in the studies that have been done on this issue, so they just assume there is no possible way that drug legalization can be a 'good' thing.

I guess none of them listened in school when they taught us about prohibition.

All you New Age Hippies need a little opposition LOL.

[Azure]

I'm probably the last person on here that you should call a hippie.

The sad thing is that you're acting like so many friends/family I have who are unequivocally opposed to marijuana legalization. Despite all evidence to the contrary they still maintain that there is no possible good that could come of it.

[vektor]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I still stand by the assertation that smoking dope is not the healthiest thing in the world for teenagers either and everything possible should be done to restrict access to them.

it's not, I love cannabis as much as anyone. But it's been shown to have neurotoxic effects on the brain while it's still developing, so yeah, anyone under 21 shouldn't smoke it.

[flamefan74]

Originally Posted by vektor

I shall quote myself to stop any more ridiculous arguments

"no one has ever overdosed on cannabis"

moving on, is there any logical input you have to add?

Your number is misleading. If you read the references of the article you posted, the 80,000 number is for all deaths attributed to alcohol including such things as breast cancer,prostate cancer, motor vehicle accidents, falls, alcohol poisoning, etc. The actual alcohol poisoning number itself is small.

I tried to find a number on marijuana deaths, but all I could find was 11.1% of homicides and 7.5% of suicides were attributed to marijuana. Doesn't look like they keep nearly as good of records of those types of deaths. Which you think the government would if they were trying to stop people from using it.

Personally, I would legalize it and tax the hell out of it. But I still think there would be an underground movement that grows it and sells it. No idea what a joint goes for these days. But knowing the government, their price would probably be double the black market.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

All you New Age Hippies need a little opposition LOL.

Yep. Let grown ups who aren't hurting anyone make their own decisions about their health. Real New Age thinking right there, I know. JFC.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by flamefan74

Your number is misleading. If you read the references of the article you posted, the 80,000 number is for all deaths attributed to alcohol including such things as breast cancer,prostate cancer, motor vehicle accidents, falls, alcohol poisoning, etc. The actual alcohol poisoning number itself is small.

I tried to find a number on marijuana deaths, but all I could find was 11.1% of homicides and 7.5% of suicides were attributed to marijuana. Doesn't look like they keep nearly as good of records of those types of deaths. Which you think the government would if they were trying to stop people from using it.

Personally, I would legalize it and tax the hell out of it. But I still think there would be an underground movement that grows it and sells it. No idea what a joint goes for these days. But knowing the government, their price would probably be double the black market.

Why do you need to 'tax the hell out of it'? Why can't you tax it at a reasonable rate, similar to alcohol? If it's $40 for an eighth, and there's a five or ten dollar tax on that, I think 99% of us would pay for that ease of access at the local 7/11 as opposed to having to go into the residence of someone who was willing to break the law to provide us with this plant.

If you overtax these things, it just creates a second black market, which is exactly what you were trying to avoid in the first place by legalizing it.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by flamefan74

I tried to find a number on marijuana deaths, but all I could find was 11.1% of homicides and 7.5% of suicides were attributed to marijuana. Doesn't look like they keep nearly as good of records of those types of deaths. Which you think the government would if they were trying to stop people from using it.

Link for those numbers/studies?

Also what were the numbers for alcohol? My guess would be in the 50% range for homicide, and 30% for suicides.

The reason there aren't very good records or studies done by the government is because they know the answer and if they were to put an honest study out it wouldn't show what they want to keep it illegal.

Luckily people are becoming more educated and not just listening to the BS the government tells them. This is why we are seeing a change to over 50% of Americans being in favor, and even a higher number in younger people. I actually don't really blame the older crowd for wanting it to remain illegal as they were told some pretty crazy things as youths about the drug.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Why do you need to 'tax the hell out of it'? Why can't you tax it at a reasonable rate, similar to alcohol? If it's $40 for an eighth, and there's a five or ten dollar tax on that, I think 99% of us would pay for that ease of access at the local 7/11 as opposed to having to go into the residence of someone who was willing to break the law to provide us with this plant.

If you overtax these things, it just creates a second black market, which is exactly what you were trying to avoid in the first place by legalizing it.

The thing about marijuana is it is so low cost to produce even if they did 'over tax' their prices would still be cheaper than the current black market.

Let's assume it would cost $60/oz to produce, even though it should be much lower, cigarettes cost about $15 a carton to produce and that's almost 8oz of tobacco.

Carton of Marijuana(1oz) - 8 Packs(1/8oz):

Cost to Manufacture: $60.00
Federal Excise Duty: $4.26
Provincial 'Tobacco' Tax (BC): $55.50
Wholesale Margin (10%): $11.98
Total Wholesale Cost: $131.74

Cost Per 'Pack' (1/8oz): $16.47
Retail Markup (20%): $3.29
HST (BC): $2.37
Total Price/Pack: $22.13

Few things to note:

- Federal Excise Tax $2.13 for tobacco
- Provincial Tobacco Tax (BC) is $37.00 for tobacco
- Wholesale Margin is 6% for tobacco
- Retail Markup is 13% for tobacco
- HST (12%) isn't charged on tobacco

Currently 1/8oz costs an average of $40-50. So for their to be a profitable black market the government would really need put excessive taxes on marijuana, even more than the 1.5-2x I estimated compared to cigarettes. Now if they actually taxed it like tobacco and cost to manufacture is closer to the real thing, we would be looking at ~$10.35 for 1/8oz to the consumer.

You could easily add more taxes in there (education, health, law enforcement, traffic safety, etc.) and still keep it a reasonable and beatable price to the black market. Most people would spend more, even though the government could undercut, and choose the legal way for convenience. Will you still have illegal market? Sure. But we have an illegal cigarette market as well. There will always be those people.

There is just no way any grower could compete, even knowing the mark up from grower, to middle man, to dealer, there just isn't enough money if punishment stayed the same for illegal production and sales. The only reason that $30/oz of marijuana turns into $200/oz by the time someone buys it is because it's illegal, not because of the high cost to produce it.

edit: Add to that using the same figures (just adjusting numbers as per province tax rates) and assuming about 10-12.5% of the population currently and will continue to use marijuana you would be looking at $6,000,000,000 in Provincial and Federal revenue. Plus you would save $450,000,000 in law enforcement and $150,000,000 in court costs for marijuana. And I'm sure there are also other very high costs that can't be calculated like the amount of real crime that could have or will be stopped if they stop chasing around a plant they will never control.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by HOOT

edit: Add to that using the same figures (just adjusting numbers as per province tax rates) and assuming about 10-12.5% of the population currently and will continue to use marijuana you would be looking at $6,000,000,000 in Provincial and Federal revenue. Plus you would save $450,000,000 in law enforcement and $150,000,000 in court costs for marijuana. And I'm sure there are also other very high costs that can't be calculated like the amount of real crime that could have or will be stopped if they stop chasing around a plant they will never control.

Who, knowing even the slightest bit about the affects of marijuana, looks at those figures and goes 'well this is clearly a good use of money'? FFS, for the court costs alone, you could buy 500 top of the line MRI machines.

Figure this out, government, your citizenry deserves better.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Who, knowing even the slightest bit about the affects of marijuana, looks at those figures and goes 'well this is clearly a good use of money'? FFS, for the court costs alone, you could buy 500 top of the line MRI machines.

Figure this out, government, your citizenry deserves better.

Don't worry people are only waiting 11+ months to get in on those MRI machines, no rush.

Not only that but that figure is 80% of the law enforcement budget for drug crimes. One of the least harmful drugs, legal or not, and they spend that much time and money going after it. But at least Canada is better than the US where some states (Texas for example) where marijuana possession arrests make up 70%+ of their arrest totals. It's almost like they have no other crime and/or have nothing better to do. But I guess it just makes for an easy target to arrest blacks and hispanics.