Liberals introduce motion calling for formal process to repeal Indian Act

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by jammies

Half of the non-native population wouldn't know what to do with half a million dollars either. Me included.

Define "know."

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Azure

If the government gave each Native in Canada a half million dollars, the liquor industry in Canada would report substantial increase in profits the following year.

Should it happen, I would almost certainly be buying stock in every publicly traded company in Canada that produces and sells any form of alcohol including mouthwash and rubbing alcohol.

wow.............

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Azure

If the government gave each Native in Canada a half million dollars, the liquor industry in Canada would report substantial increase in profits the following year.

Should it happen, I would almost certainly be buying stock in every publicly traded company in Canada that produces and sells any form of alcohol including mouthwash and rubbing alcohol.

Pretty sure that post is pretty damn racist.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Pretty sure that post is pretty damn racist.

reportable......?

[Azure]

Did I have to use the green text? Really guys?

You can call it racist all you want, but giving the Native community, which is being torn apart by drugs and alcohol billions of dollars in unrestricted funds, and telling them that the reserve is gone, and they need to get a job and live like the rest of Canadians would almost certainly result in a large portion of it spent on drugs and alcohol.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Azure

Did I have to use the green text? Really guys?

nice backpedal.......I would suggest that this type of post either needs green text or doesn't need to be posted.

[Azure]

I'm not backpedaling at all. While it was meant in jest in reply to the extremely stupid idea of giving a group of people a large sum of money for basically screwing them over for hundreds of years, when the cold hard fact that a very large percentage of them live in poverty and are addicts to drugs and alcohol. It would almost CERTAINLY result in a lot of them spending that money on more drugs and more alcohol and the vicious cycle would just continue, except there would be no more reserve for them to go back too.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Define "know."

In this context, "be cognizant of good fortune and use the money responsibly instead of on hookers, booze, and conspicuous consumption of consumable luxury goods."

Don't worry though, I'd set aside at least a hundred grand so we could go back to Vegas and do it right.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not backpedaling at all. While it was meant in jest in reply to the extremely stupid idea of giving a group of people a large sum of money for basically screwing them over for hundreds of years, when the cold hard fact that a very large percentage of them live in poverty and are addicts to drugs and alcohol. It would almost CERTAINLY result in a lot of them spending that money on more drugs and more alcohol and the vicious cycle would just continue, except there would be no more reserve for them to go back too.

If someone gave any group of people half a million dollars each, there would certainly be a large increase in people spending money on drugs and alcohol.

That said, there is no way to think that a single lump sum payment would be a good idea, especially due to the massive societal dysfunction on the reserves. Even talking about it right now in an even remotely serious fashion is borderline idiotic.

If something like this was to happen, there would need to be large scale property transfers from the reserve to individual natives, probably including funding options for purchasing property that wasn't on the reserve. There would need to be perpetual funding available all natives in the form of social assistance of one form or another, based on some type of qualification system, above and beyond existing programs. Such funding should cover educational expenses, retraining, expanded housing assistance, etc.

Without those provisions, it would never happen. With those provisions, it might cost the government even more than we are paying now.

[FlamesAddiction]

Heh, poor Azure.

He isn't total wrong and there are examples of this happening in the past. One of the local bands near the town I grew up in, won a pretty big settlement back in the early 1990s. Every person from that reserve received a fairly large sum of money (I'm not sure how much, but it was in the thousands). I am not saying this to be racist, but the streets became crowded with intoxicated natives day and night for a couple of weeks. There were literally encampments set up in wooded areas all around town.

It's not racist to acknowledge that many aboriginal communities have high rates of substance abuse and addiction (likely higher than the average), nor is it racist to acknowledge that addicts are not necessarily the best people to give large sums of money to (regardless of race).

[mykalberta]

First nations are the only ones who should vote for this. It should be there responsibility to come up with ideas for replacing it if they so desire it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Heh, poor Azure.

He isn't total wrong and there are examples of this happening in the past. One of the local bands near the town I grew up in, won a pretty big settlement back in the early 1990s. Every person from that reserve received a fairly large sum of money (I'm not sure how much, but it was in the thousands). I am not saying this to be racist, but the streets became crowded with intoxicated natives day and night for a couple of weeks. There were literally encampments set up in wooded areas all around town.

It's not racist to acknowledge that many aboriginal communities have high rates of substance abuse and addiction (likely higher than the average), nor is it racist to acknowledge that addicts are not necessarily the best people to give large sums of money to (regardless of race).

This:

Should it happen, I would almost certainly be buying stock in every publicly traded company in Canada that produces and sells any form of alcohol including mouthwash and rubbing alcohol.

Makes is racist.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

First nations are the only ones who should vote for this. It should be there responsibility to come up with ideas for replacing it if they so desire it.

Good idea. Let them be masters of their own fate.
However the bolded part is the only part of your statement that I disagree with. Its time to cut the apron strings... whether they desire it or not.

[opendoor]

Unfortunately overcoming firmly entrenched poverty and marginalization (and the social problems that come with it) for an entire group of people is damned near impossible in the short term. The cycle of poverty (or generational poverty) is generally thought to really take root after about 3 generations and First Nations people have been in that cycle for far longer than that. No matter what is done, there are no quick solutions to this issue and even if done with every good intention, will take generations to sort out. There are always exceptions to the rule (hopefully that saves some people the trouble from coming in and saying "I grew up in poverty and pulled myself by the bootstraps) but those are unfortunately the exceptions.

It should also be noted that any solution that "cuts the apron strings" against the First Nations peoples' will isn't going to happen because it'll be in violation of Canadian law and open up a constitutional can of worms. It's going to have to be a collaborative process.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Good idea. Let them be masters of their own fate.
However the bolded part is the only part of your statement that I disagree with. Its time to cut the apron strings... whether they desire it or not.

This is how I see it going forward. Parliament passes a motion to repeal the Indian Act, they go to the leaders of representative tribal councils, and leave it to them to draft how this is going to happen. It would be very difficult to get an agreement everyone can be satisfied with, but that's democracy. The tribal councils present the plan, parliament then approves the plan that was drafted and passed by the first nations people of Canada.

[Nufy]

Originally Posted by jammies

Half of the non-native population wouldn't know what to do with half a million dollars either. Me included.

Grey Eagle Casino.....

Nickel slots till dawn.....and all you can eat shrimp.

[FlamesFanInOilCountry]

I'm surprised that this debate so far has only been about dollars and cents. I understand that money is of primary importance, but unless you can present a system that Aboriginal groups feel that their rights are protected it's really a moot point. Aboriginals feel that they are Canadian citizens "plus" meaning that they are entitled to extra rights on top of Canadian citizenship because the Canadian government entered into treaties with Aboriginal Bands to see that their basic needs (healthcare, education, basic tools) are met, and the government then proceeds to mis-manage this responsibility for close to 1.5 centuries and then they just want to wash their hands and make every Aboriginal "equal" with the rest of the population? The government made multiple promises to aboriginal bands all over Canada, and they cannot just opt out when things do not go well.

You cannot just throw money at this problem, because that's what the government has been doing all along, and alot of Aboriginal groups have been mis-managing the funds given and that's part of how we have ended up where we are. The government can't manage Aboriginal groups so they try to give increase Aboriginal self-government, which doesn't work either. If the government wants to end the Indian Act, then they best get planning an amendment to the Indian Act that addresses the needs of all parties. The real problem is that a lot of Aboriginal groups do not what the same things of mainstream population (property ownership, entrepreneurship etc).

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Heh, poor Azure.

He isn't total wrong and there are examples of this happening in the past. One of the local bands near the town I grew up in, won a pretty big settlement back in the early 1990s. Every person from that reserve received a fairly large sum of money (I'm not sure how much, but it was in the thousands). I am not saying this to be racist, but the streets became crowded with intoxicated natives day and night for a couple of weeks. There were literally encampments set up in wooded areas all around town.

It's not racist to acknowledge that many aboriginal communities have high rates of substance abuse and addiction (likely higher than the average), nor is it racist to acknowledge that addicts are not necessarily the best people to give large sums of money to (regardless of race).

The reason I said it was because I have firsthand experience as well. There was a native kid in my class whose parents received a large windfall from a source that nobody ever knew about. Needless to say he spent a very large amount of money on booze and drugs and ended up killing himself a few short years later.

The rates of substance abuse are much, much higher than the norm, and simply giving them money and telling them to integrate into society will be a complete disaster.

I want them to have the same opportunity the rest of us have. I grew up with Natives, went to school with Natives, and one of my better friends was a Native. I am far from racist.

There is no easy solution. I just know the Indian Act doesn't work. I think you need some sort of results oriented program that slowly breaks down the reserve system, and rewards Natives based on their results. I would have absolutely no problem giving them extremely favorable tuition rates if they can keep good grades and graduate from post-secondary. In fact I would absolutely consider writing off their student loans completely if they graduated with good marks and got a good job.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

This is how I see it going forward. Parliament passes a motion to repeal the Indian Act, they go to the leaders of representative tribal councils, and leave it to them to draft how this is going to happen. It would be very difficult to get an agreement everyone can be satisfied with, but that's democracy. The tribal councils present the plan, parliament then approves the plan that was drafted and passed by the first nations people of Canada.

I have a hard time believing any tribal council will actually work out a plan that will break down and disband the reserve system.

My guess is they just ask for more money. Ultimately no matter which way you look at it, any kind of solution will involve hard decisions for a lot of Native people. Whether it is a decision for the chiefs to quit sucking money off the taxpayer without helping their own reserve, or the people of the reserve to put in some effort to do better. Most of the Natives I've met have a very extreme 'the government owes us' opinion, and as a result I don't see that changing at all for generations.

Sadly, that is the price we have to pay, and the taxpayer will have to cough up a lot of money to help them integrate back into society. We should say thanks to the government who signed the stupid Indian Act for screwing not only us over now, but generations upon generations of Native people.

[taco.vidal]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4629646/

A New Democrat MP from northern Quebec has apologized for being too drunk to fly and says he will take time off to deal with his alcohol addiction.

Romeo Saganash, the MP for Abitibi-Baie-James-Nunavik-Eeyou, was escorted from an Air Canada Jazz flight from Montreal on Friday after it was determined that he was intoxicated.

Mr. Saganash is a residential school survivor and a former deputy grand chief of the Grand Council of Crees who entered the race last year to succeed former NDP Leader Jack Layton but pulled out before the March convention that elected Thomas Mulcair.

“I am not looking at excuses, but I know that profound scars were left on me because of my time in residential school. I never shied away from,” he said in the statement.