Mass. judge orders taxpayer-funded sex change operation for convicted murderer

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Badger Bob

Everybody got that? All LGBT demands MUST be met. You bigots are supposed to just pay up and keep your mouths SHUT! Woof!

Laughable immaturity on your part.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Iginla

So let me get this right...

If I'm an American dying of some type of disease, I am better off commiting a crime and going to jail and having the government pay for the health bill than to be a contributing member of society and making my family pay for the bill after I die.

God Bless America.

I can't recall the exacts of the story, but yes, there was a man who knew he needed serious medical attention, but he was unable to afford healthcare, and pre-ACA, insurance companies could just deny him based on pre-existing conditions. So he robbed a bank for just enough money to get himself jail-time, because as a prisoner, he would get the healthcare he needed.

It's a really deeply screwed up disciplinary system, as well as a really messed up healthcare system, in this country.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

I think we are all better than allowing dogma to get in the way of helping people get the medical care they need.

Someone with diabetes needs insulin. Someone who was born with the 'mind' (sorry, I really don't know what term to use, I don't mean that out of disrespect) of a women and the body of a man does not need a sex change, they want one. Not everyone in this situation wants the surgery, not everyone who is diabetic wants to take insulin, but they must take it to survive. This is probably the gist of the argument, in particular when the state (us) pays for the procedure. Bigotry is probably the least common issue.
Is what I am saying incorrect? What part of what this am I missing?

[Weiser Wonder]

They need genital surgery in the same way cisgender people (that is people born with genitalia that matches their gender) have a right to their genitals.

[handgroen]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Healthcare is a right to inmates. This is proper healthcare. She is an inmate. End of story.

Also #### the raging bigots in this thread.

i actually thought we weren't going to see the other side of this argued, but you my friend have made this thread. and to you i say good luck.

i do not agree with what you say, but i shall defend to the death your right to take the low ground and insight inflamatory posting.

[Flash Walken]

Won't someone think of the taxpayers!?!

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

They need genital surgery in the same way cisgender people (that is people born with genitalia that matches their gender) have a right to their genitals.

Their right to this surgery is equal to the right for someone else to their own genitals? Now you have completely lost me. Is this not cosmetic surgery? How is this different than having nose jobs paid for? Is it not the same thing? I also don't care what politicians decided on this already, this is my opinion.

I basically understand (at least I think I do) the issues regarding the physical body and gender and sexuality, I do not agree with it being categorized as a required procedure.

Regardless, is there any research into if the procedures work at curing whatever issue it was intended to solve?

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Regardless, is there any research into if the procedures work at curing whatever issue it was intended to solve?

Not sure where I stand on the issue in general at the moment, but this is just a weak argument. If the issue is that she is a woman in a man's body, and the procedure is considered to make her physically a woman, you don't really need research to determine this. Yes, it does.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Regardless, is there any research into if the procedures work at curing whatever issue it was intended to solve?

Doctors often just slash body parts up and recreate them into something else without any sort of backing from medical research. In fact, I bet that GRS is actually the result of a drunk dare and rather than having the guilty party confess, the medical community has just completely created a stringent set of diagnostic and treatment procedures, so they don't look bad.

That's why I go to Jenny McCarthy for my vaccination advice as well.

[polak]

Okay, I'm probably going to be the only one who thinks so but this whole scheme just sounds like a cover up for Nazi-esque body experimentation....

[valo403]

Originally Posted by polak

Okay, I'm probably going to be the only one who thinks so but this whole scheme just sounds like a cover up for Nazi-esque body experimentation....

You have a stunning ability to Godwin threads

[polak]

Originally Posted by valo403

You have a stunning ability to Godwin threads

This one may or may not have been intended

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Iginla

So let me get this right...

If I'm an American dying of some type of disease, I am better off commiting a crime and going to jail and having the government pay for the health bill than to be a contributing member of society and making my family pay for the bill after I die.

God Bless America.

Actually yes. Its been documented.

[LChoy]

Just my 2 cents when I was with AHW and this policy issue came up.

1. While there is an increasing amount of gender dysphoria being diagnosed these days, there continues to be only a small amount of people that qualify for GRS/SRS in Canada (technically, if a person pays out of pocket, they can go out of country to get it done). We're really talking about a drop in the bucket to tax payers

2. Although it is still a bit controversial, Gender dysphoria is a recognized disorder in the medical community and GRS/SRS is the last stage of recommended treatment.

3. Not everyone with gender dysphoria will get GRS/SRS or even qualify for it. Patients with gender confusion first undergo counselling and assessment by qualified medical professionals. Counselling helps identify the root cause and separate those that are dysphoric from those that have have other issues that can be treated through counselling and support. Some provinces and States will also conduct a physical assessment including blood work (male and female hormone levels, brain scans...etc).

3. Usually the goal is to have the patient learn how to live in their biological gender, or find avenues of release (ie live the life normal as a man, but going to a monthly support group as a woman with other similar peers). Counselling also helps determines if there are underlying issues that may cause gender confusion (ie common in women where her parents were greatly disappointed they didn't get a son instead, and took it out on the daughter)

4. If a patient is diagnosed by 2 separate gender specialist as dysphoric, as in they're no longer able to operate in their biological gender, that's when they start transition to the other gender. They must live at least 1 year in their preferred gender, with regular checkups, before they qualify for GRS/SRS

5. I guess the big "Why question" about why technically a "cosmetic" surgery should be covered by our public system. The reason mainly is that it's ultimately a harm reduction surgery. Without treatment, a gender dysphoric patient is thousands of times more likely to harm themselves or take their own lives. In some ways, the surgery is literally saving their lives. Essentially imagine one day waking up and everyone treating like you were a woman (if you're a guy). Staring at a mirror if you're a guy and have an image of a girl/woman staring back at you. Sure you feel and think like a man, but the image projected to the environment is that of a woman. That's pretty much how a gender dysphoric feels every day.

So when I see something like this, I can see why on the surface there will be an outcry, but the decision is based on evidence. Even in prison, a prisoner has the same right to proper health care as a free person. If this prisoner has gone through the proper assessment, than they should receive the surgery. It's tricky because than she becomes legally a woman in a men's prison but that's another area I don't have enough knowledge to comment on. Furthermore though, I think this really does show the desperation the prisoner is facing. Realistically, a men's prison is the worst environment to want to be a woman in.

As science is continuing to show, gender and sex are not so black and white as once thought, but rather a spectrum. For whatever reason, some people are just hardwired with a brain that doesn't match their body. Gender confusion is also a lot more common than you think, and I bet there is a good chance on a message board this big that someone on here either is or knows someone with this kind of issue. From a medical and health policy standpoint, the goal of health care is to ensure everyone can have a healthy and productive life.



LChoy

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

They need genital surgery in the same way cisgender people (that is people born with genitalia that matches their gender) have a right to their genitals.

Honest question: If John Bobbitt went to prison, would the state pay to reconstruct his penis? If so, then this surgery should be covered. If not, it's much more difficult to justify, since, as you say, transgender people need genital surgery in the same way that cisgender people have a right to their genitals.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

Just my 2 cents when I was with AHW and this policy issue came up.

1. While there is an increasing amount of gender dysphoria being diagnosed these days, there continues to be only a small amount of people that qualify for GRS/SRS in Canada (technically, if a person pays out of pocket, they can go out of country to get it done). We're really talking about a drop in the bucket to tax payers

2. Although it is still a bit controversial, Gender dysphoria is a recognized disorder in the medical community and GRS/SRS is the last stage of recommended treatment.

3. Not everyone with gender dysphoria will get GRS/SRS or even qualify for it. Patients with gender confusion first undergo counselling and assessment by qualified medical professionals. Counselling helps identify the root cause and separate those that are dysphoric from those that have have other issues that can be treated through counselling and support. Some provinces and States will also conduct a physical assessment including blood work (male and female hormone levels, brain scans...etc).

3. Usually the goal is to have the patient learn how to live in their biological gender, or find avenues of release (ie live the life normal as a man, but going to a monthly support group as a woman with other similar peers). Counselling also helps determines if there are underlying issues that may cause gender confusion (ie common in women where her parents were greatly disappointed they didn't get a son instead, and took it out on the daughter)

4. If a patient is diagnosed by 2 separate gender specialist as dysphoric, as in they're no longer able to operate in their biological gender, that's when they start transition to the other gender. They must live at least 1 year in their preferred gender, with regular checkups, before they qualify for GRS/SRS

5. I guess the big "Why question" about why technically a "cosmetic" surgery should be covered by our public system. The reason mainly is that it's ultimately a harm reduction surgery. Without treatment, a gender dysphoric patient is thousands of times more likely to harm themselves or take their own lives. In some ways, the surgery is literally saving their lives. Essentially imagine one day waking up and everyone treating like you were a woman (if you're a guy). Staring at a mirror if you're a guy and have an image of a girl/woman staring back at you. Sure you feel and think like a man, but the image projected to the environment is that of a woman. That's pretty much how a gender dysphoric feels every day.

So when I see something like this, I can see why on the surface there will be an outcry, but the decision is based on evidence. Even in prison, a prisoner has the same right to proper health care as a free person. If this prisoner has gone through the proper assessment, than they should receive the surgery. It's tricky because than she becomes legally a woman in a men's prison but that's another area I don't have enough knowledge to comment on. Furthermore though, I think this really does show the desperation the prisoner is facing. Realistically, a men's prison is the worst environment to want to be a woman in.

As science is continuing to show, gender and sex are not so black and white as once thought, but rather a spectrum. For whatever reason, some people are just hardwired with a brain that doesn't match their body. Gender confusion is also a lot more common than you think, and I bet there is a good chance on a message board this big that someone on here either is or knows someone with this kind of issue. From a medical and health policy standpoint, the goal of health care is to ensure everyone can have a healthy and productive life.



LChoy

Good post. The newest guidelines are much less stringent however, as giving off the notion that it's something to avoid is othering. So, in progressive places at least, therapy is moving towards an atmosphere of acceptance as it helps more people come out at young ages and allows trans people to not feel like they must meet certain standards. Which does much, much more for helping the depression and anxiety that comes with gender dysphoria than stringent guidelines.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Honest question: If John Bobbitt went to prison, would the state pay to reconstruct his penis? If so, then this surgery should be covered. If not, it's much more difficult to justify, since, as you say, transgender people need genital surgery in the same way that cisgender people have a right to their genitals.

Yes. If he wanted it done. Although I pretty sure they use the clitoris as the starting point in FTM surgery, so I'm not sure it's possible.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Badger Bob

Everybody got that? All LGBT demands MUST be met. You bigots are supposed to just pay up and keep your mouths SHUT! Woof!

Maybe you should just stay away from the gay/transgendered stuff, BadgerBob. Yo come off as a homophobic bigot, and you got absolutely destroyed in that other thread when you tried to have a "dicussion" and then you never returned to thread.

Obviously something's happend in your past or you were brought up poorly regarding equality and all that, but good god do you sound brutal when you speak on these subjects.

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Maybe you should just stay away from the gay/transgendered stuff, BadgerBob. Yo come off as a homophobic bigot,

Or maybe it's the general disinclination of having to engage with obnoxious 20 year (or younger) punks who've been indoctrinated to the "PC" way of thinking. Suggestion, maybe next time you want to get in a face-to-face discussion on such topic, toss out one of your names, then see what happens.

and you got absolutely destroyed in that other thread when you tried to have a "dicussion" and then you never returned to thread.

Actually, I left when the moderator made an issue of a personal story being off-topic, ironic with it being the "off topic forum." Next, I don't visit the CP all that often, and certainly didn't feel the need to respond to every reply, most of which were recycled from much earlier in the thread. Most of them probably swarm in Facebook and Twitter debates in the same way. If the "dogpile" strategy makes 'em feel that they've "won," then so be it.

Obviously something's happend in your past or you were brought up poorly regarding equality and all that, but good god do you sound brutal when you speak on these subjects.

Actually, in the other thread, the important point was made that it was a demand not a right. The usual platitudes were uttered, but nobody ever really showed that it was a right.

As far as this topic, did you bother to read the link? Doubt it, since you're too busy making it personal. Since you want to make it personal, my take is that it doesn't matter a lick to me if you're LBGT, yourself, or just a hyperactive online activist for cause.

The point of this thread is that taxpayers were being forced to pay for a convicted MURDERER. We could hazard a guess that even a few liberals in Massachusetts might have issues with footing the bill, after feeding and housing him/her/it for over 2 decades. Further, since again, you probably didn't read the article, insurance companies haven't even footed the bill for these surgeries as they're considered elective.

Meantime, if you and the OP want to discuss in a civil manner, we can keep going. If not, then whatever happens, happens.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Badger Bob

Or maybe it's the general disinclination of having to engage with obnoxious 20 year (or younger) punks who've been indoctrinated to the "PC" way of thinking. Suggestion, maybe next time you want to get in a face-to-face discussion on such topic, toss out one of your names, then see what happens.

I really love how being "PC" is an insult. Being "politically correct" is basically just saying you're going to try not to be a dick and offend people on purpose. Being PC just means that you are empathetic and sympathetic to the people around you. This isn't a bad thing.