CMA calling for a ban on spanking

[Paladium]

I don't think people are using that as justification for spanking they are commenting that they were spanked and turned out okay - later on many then talk about whether they will or will not or did or did not spank their children.

I don't see that as a problem - if George Washington could be spanked (probably why he never told a lie - which is a trait he no doubt learned after the first spanking) I think joe schmoe's kid can be spanked as well. That is, if Joe Schmoe wants to have spanking in his toolbox of discipline measures - that's up to him - who am I to tell him differently?

You know the one thing I don't see on here is anyone saying - "I had a 10 minute time-out and I turned out okay" - probably because they don't have the internet and access to Calgary Puck Forums while in prison is my likely guess.

You know as a parent it is quite rare that spanking is the first disciplinary measure (and perhaps I am not using the right phraseology so forgive me) that a parent will use.

Of course I am not going to spank my kid for running around the pool - so having the child stop and settle down is probably step one.

Is there ever a time when spanking is warranted - in my opinion absolutely - there are just some situations where the behaviour is so wrong (typically violent or mean spirited) that immediate intervention in the form of a spanking is warranted (again IMHO).

Did I ever spank my kids when I was angry - probably - but the child receives instant feedback - to cool down and wait a couple of hours and then give a spanking is counter intuitive. The longer you wait from the event to the discipline the less effective the measure.

My kids are in their late 20's now - and I would say I could count on half of one hand where they received a spanking.

On the flipside as a kid I can count on both hands when i got a spanking - I was a high energy kid - I am sure I deserved a spanking in most cases but again it wasn't my Dad's first discipline measure - there was "go to your room", "no television"

I don't believe I was ever spanked in my teen years just given the warning "wait til your father gets home" - which typically turned me into an angel but in the end I was still disciplined in some form or another.

When I became a parent there were a lot of things I said I would change from my parent's ways - and did. A lot of it had to do with being less strict, being more generous helping out more (allowances and such). Like anything some things turned out to be more successful then others. I think in some cases I swung the pendulum too much the other way - and as a result my kids lost out on some good life lessons - or learned them later then they should have.

[psicodude]

The problem with spanking is that it is ALWAYS done out of anger. I have spanked my 5 year old son probably a dozen or so times in his life, and if I am being completely honest, I was intensely angry every time I did it. As others have stated previously, spanking really is the lazy way out. Escalating punishments including time out, removal of toys or other fun things, going to bed early, etc. are all really effective. They are just a lot more work.

Every time I have spanked my son, I always feel guilty after because I have just taught him that hitting others is an effective way to get what you want.

[Paladium]

Talking back to parents = "Danger Will Robinson"

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by psicodude

The problem with spanking is that it is ALWAYS done out of anger. I have spanked my 5 year old son probably a dozen or so times in his life, and if I am being completely honest, I was intensely angry every time I did it. As others have stated previously, spanking really is the lazy way out. Escalating punishments including time out, removal of toys or other fun things, going to bed early, etc. are all really effective. They are just a lot more work.

Every time I have spanked my son, I always feel guilty after because I have just taught him that hitting others is an effective way to get what you want.

Exactly, bang on.

[Locke]

Agree with people who understand its a tool amongst many and has its moments of necessity.

We sit here seeing an organization attempting to mandate the elimination of the most reasonable form of physical punishment and yet we wonder why kids are becoming disrespectful dicks.

'I was spanked and I turned out okay' being the bar set too low because they're only okay as opposed to being a Supreme Court Justice or a CEO is also ridiculous. As though being spanked as a child is the single and most important determining factor for future success.

Touch them and they'll be screwed up forever!! All hope is lost!

If you're beating the crap out of them all day every day or you swat Johnny on the back of the head every time he steps out of line, then yeah, thats a concern that should be addressed, but the odd spanking after doing something serious isnt the end of the world.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Red-Mile-DJ

To clear things up, I don't like the "time out" method. I don't think it teaches the child any consequences of their actions. But...that's just me.

Depends on the kid I think. My daughter is impervious to timeouts but responds well to "incentives" or having stuff taken away. I have spanked her once in her life (she's 6) and she got the message. She has never pushed us nearly that far ever again.

My son hates timeouts with a passion and they are extremely effective for him. I have spanked him once and so has my wife. It is completely ineffective for him as he just completely shuts down and 100% tunes you out as you try to talk to him (same if you yell at him at all).

[Locke]

Originally Posted by ernie

Depends on the kid I think. My daughter is impervious to timeouts but responds well to "incentives" or having stuff taken away. I have spanked her once in her life (she's 6) and she got the message. She has never pushed us nearly that far ever again.

My son hates timeouts with a passion and they are extremely effective for him. I have spanked him once and so has my wife. It is completely ineffective for him as he just completely shuts down and 100% tunes you out as you try to talk to him (same if you yell at him at all).

Who is training who here?

[STeeLy]

Originally Posted by ernie

Depends on the kid I think. My daughter is impervious to timeouts but responds well to "incentives" or having stuff taken away. I have spanked her once in her life (she's 6) and she got the message. She has never pushed us nearly that far ever again.

The thing is (and definitely not speaking from experience here) that there is not one right way to raise a kid. There should definitely be a balance between punishment and reward. Definitely need to have one with the other.

But that's dragging this off topic to how to raise a child instead of purely on spanking.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

The thing is (and definitely not speaking from experience here) that there is not one right way to raise a kid. There should definitely be a balance between punishment and reward. Definitely need to have one with the other.

But that's dragging this off topic to how to raise a child instead of purely on spanking.

I don't disagree except for well the fact the way I raise my children is the correct way!

Just saying that for our kids we have one where the one instance things got pushed too far spanking was effective. For the other not so much. And timeouts have the opposite effect. They are different people and get disciplined as different people.

Who is training who here?

Yeah we've gotten that before when talking about this issue with others except they are dead serious. I might even believe those people if we didn't have a more effective way to deal with his transgressions and keep him from those transgressions (he thrives when things are very well structured perhaps overly so for many kids).

All in all our kids are really well behaved and they know we don't put up with stuff that is unacceptable (in our eyes). We've had restaurant walk outs. I've walked out of a theater with my daughter during previews (man did that one put her straight when it comes to behaving in public! it also scared her brother straight and he wasn't even there!) etc etc.

[photon]

Originally Posted by ernie

Yeah we've gotten that before when talking about this issue with others except they are dead serious. I might even believe those people if we didn't have a more effective way to deal with his transgressions and keep him from those transgressions (he thrives when things are very well structured perhaps overly so for many kids).

All in all our kids are really well behaved and they know we don't put up with stuff that is unacceptable (in our eyes). We've had restaurant walk outs. I've walked out of a theater with my daughter during previews (man did that one put her straight when it comes to behaving in public! it also scared her brother straight and he wasn't even there!) etc etc.

Yeah, sometimes I think people lose sight of the goal of parenting; to teach the kid to be able to make good decisions. Using tactics that work isn't "being trained by the child" if they're being taught to make good decisions. It's not about ideology, it's about winning (where the victory condition is a good member of society).

[Coach]

No kids for me, but I was one once. My parents spanked me on the odd occasion when I being a special kind of brat. I feel like in order for something like the "1,2,3" countdown or even a time-out to work there has to be a "threat" of something greater. And when a kid tests your boundries (and I believe that most kids instinctively do) you have to be able to deliver. What happens after he finishes counting to 3? 4? Sit in my room (who cares)? Make me go outside (ooohh darn)? Oh, my beast of a man father is going to hit me if I dont stop acting like a little idiot? Yeah, dont want that.

[The Coppernian One]

MattyC just went in the direction of my question, but for those of you that have kids (I don't) and employ time-outs, etc., what do you do if the kid doesn't cooperate? They don't go to their room (or stay there if you take them) or sit quietly in the corner?

[polak]

Exactly. Thats why I think spanking is necessary. You can't just compound lesser punishments that are easy to break.

A spanking is unavoidable consequence.

Say you say "no tv" and you catch them watching tv... what, are you just going to say "well no internet now either"?

I'm seriously curious as someone who is young and doesn't have kids. I know that in this sort of direct defience I would look to spanking.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by The Coppernian One

MattyC just went in the direction of my question, but for those of you that have kids (I don't) and employ time-outs, etc., what do you do if the kid doesn't cooperate? They don't go to their room (or stay there if you take them) or sit quietly in the corner?

I have never, ever had my children not cooperate. If they have always been presented with this type of parenting it isn't an issue. I have had issues with the girl slamming her door. So I took her door of the hinges. To her this was a big deal, because she likes the idea of her room being a sanctuary, I have not had problems with the boy, yet.

It's no an easy approach, it requries you to remain calm and focused, but I believe it is the correct approach.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by The Coppernian One

MattyC just went in the direction of my question, but for those of you that have kids (I don't) and employ time-outs, etc., what do you do if the kid doesn't cooperate? They don't go to their room (or stay there if you take them) or sit quietly in the corner?

time outs escapism....what we do is march them back to the corner/room/whatever and tell them until they do the timeout they aren't rejoining the fun. Early on it's a struggle to get them to stay there but let me tell you after a couple of times spending a half hour or so from the fun because they aren't doing the time out ends that foolishness. They tend to then stay in timeout and do it properly. Remember the beauty with kids is that they live in the here and now so taking them away from the fun and putting them in timeout is often very effective. Not always but often. As I said it doesn't work great with my daughter anymore but removing things from her does well.


The other ultimate "punishment" for a 3 year old is holding them still. Man do they hate that!

Of course, we don't just punish. We praise, reward and redirect as well which I do think is very important. It just doesn't always work so a more harsh tactic is sometimes needed. I also don't want to make it sound like our kids are forever in timeouts or in trouble. I honestly can't remember the last time I've had to put them in timeout (4 and 6 years old)...probably a few weeks ago. That isn't to say they don't do things wrong but typically it's a "don't do that" and they stop (or "are you allowed to do that? No? And why is that?")

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by The Coppernian One

MattyC just went in the direction of my question, but for those of you that have kids (I don't) and employ time-outs, etc., what do you do if the kid doesn't cooperate? They don't go to their room (or stay there if you take them) or sit quietly in the corner?

I assume this is when you pull out the "you're adopted" or "mommy and daddy are getting a divorce because of your bad behavior" card.

[photon]

I've definitely had issues with non-compliance with quiet times and time outs, but mostly that was only when we started to do them. Kids adapt to new structures pretty quick once they understand what's going on and as long as it's consistent.

The counting to 3 thing we incorporate as well to help focus his attention on the issue at hand. "Sit in quiet time quietly or you are going into timeout after a count of 3." After 3 if he won't go to timeout by himself I tell him he can either go by himself or I'll carry him (which he hates), so he usually goes.

Like undercoverbrother says knowing them really helps. My kid loves books and one time in timeout he threw his books all around, so we took them out of his room and then he earned them back in his room over time. And as he also says, staying calm and focused is so key, it doesn't work nearly as well if you are showing anger or frustration, and there's been times when I've had to put him in timeout "because dad is very angry right now and needs to go take a break and calm down", just like we try to teach him to walk away and take a break when his emotions are getting the best of him.

We went through a whole parenting course at one point because of the issues we were having (which ended up not being very effective after finding out he had Aspergers, and then finding out what kinds of strategies do actually work since consequences and that kind of thing just don't work).

[STeeLy]

Originally Posted by photon

We went through a whole parenting course at one point because of the issues we were having (which ended up not being very effective after finding out he had Aspergers, and then finding out what kinds of strategies do actually work since consequences and that kind of thing just don't work).

As someone who works with kids-teens-young adults on the spectrum... it really difficult to find strategies that consistently work. And there are so many individual differences among the people that we work with, even if one method works for one, it doesn't work for another. There were even cases where one strategy worked one time, but doesn't work the next with the same person. But I do agree that 9/10 times, having consequences doesn't work with most of them.

[photon]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

As someone who works with kids-teens-young adults on the spectrum... it really difficult to find strategies that consistently work. And there are so many individual differences among the people that we work with, even if one method works for one, it doesn't work for another. There were even cases where one strategy worked one time, but doesn't work the next with the same person. But I do agree that 9/10 times, having consequences doesn't work with most of them.

Yeah we run into that all the time, some levers will be very reliable then *poof* it's like it disappears for a month. Then it works again.

We still do consequences somewhat, but probably more for management of the situation vs. expectation of actual learning. The learning part comes through behaviour modification therapy, social stories, and stuff like that.

Always reassuring to know I'm not crazy when something they teach in every parenting class doesn't work for me.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by psicodude

The problem with spanking is that it is ALWAYS done out of anger. I have spanked my 5 year old son probably a dozen or so times in his life, and if I am being completely honest, I was intensely angry every time I did it. As others have stated previously, spanking really is the lazy way out. Escalating punishments including time out, removal of toys or other fun things, going to bed early, etc. are all really effective. They are just a lot more work.

Every time I have spanked my son, I always feel guilty after because I have just taught him that hitting others is an effective way to get what you want.

Rubbish, that may be the truth now after 40 years of shrinks telling us spanking is bad for kids, but back when I was young spankings were delivered with matter a fact nonchalance, even, at times by completely uninvolved 3rd parties.