The Dark Knight Rises: July 20, 2012

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by MattyC

7) Gordon didnt realize he was Bruce Wayne until after he left. Also, Batman is a persona. Bruce Wayne has a duality between the two people that I'm sure isn't easy to shake, nor is he willing to do so. Batman and Bruce Wayne are not the same person and that was kind of one of the underlying themes of the movie.

Exactly. Bruce Wayne is method, when he's Batman, he's ####ing Batman.

[Lobotroth]

I think he drops the Batman growl voice when Talia stabs him.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Were you paying attention? Haha

7) Gordon didnt realize he was Bruce Wayne until after he left. Also, Batman is a persona. Bruce Wayne has a duality between the two people that I'm sure isn't easy to shake, nor is he willing to do so. Batman and Bruce Wayne are not the same person and that was kind of one of the underlying themes of the movie.

I'd say the movie even took this one step further. Bruce Wayne went to great lengths to portray "Bruce Wayne" as an irresponsible playboy. The real him was neither of the Batman or "Bruce Wayne" characters he portrayed to the public. That was emphasized in the final movie where John Blake talks about Bruce's "mask" when he comes to visit the orphanage.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Agreed. Problem is that Dark Night Rises is not mindless yet the amateurs critics that believe they are above the regular moviegoer relish in every single plot pinhole as it provides the chance to show their superior intellect and how their high intelligence is insulted that the director didn't tack on an additional 15 minutes to an already long movie to explain to the moviegoer how Batman's knees got reconstructed.

I call people like yourself amateurs because a real critic knows what's acceptable to the general audience and isn't going to get fixated on unexplained events that don't have a large bearing on the story. If a movie is pure garbage and the only plot that exists is in holes then yes they will be bashed but a quality move doesn't get taken to task for minor holes as a real critic knows the process of what is involved in making a motion picture and that it's not practical to have every single act fully explained.

I could pick this movie apart if I wanted to but the fact is that I enjoyed it for what it was and life is too short to spend on finding reasons to critique something that brought you enjoyment. I look at movies as escapism and not a chance to bring out my detective kit and tell everyone else why they shouldn't like it. Some of you take your imaginary jobs way too seriously.

There has to be some irony that you're being a total condescending dick and at the same time accusing others of doing so.

With the exception of perhaps Tinordi who seems to just hate everything and everyone, I haven't seen a single person ever think they are some sort of expert movie reviewer. Talking about plot holes or problems with a film isn't about trying to ruin the movie for others, it is simply a way to discuss things. Imagine that, discussion on a discussion board.

Nobody has ever stated that others aren't smart for enjoying TDKR or that they're stupid because the plot holes don't bother them. For someone who is as monumentally pessimistic as yourself surely you can understand the idea of criticism? Or maybe that's the problem and you can't. You really can't separate criticism from dislike. I can criticize TDKR and still love it.

Only a few select people on CP ever claim to be film afficianados or go all peter12 and claim to be on too much of an intellectual highground to even share their knowledge with us lowly minions. Not to mention the fact that this thread is 1500 posts and most of it is filled with some really interesting discussion. But angry EE doesn't like that. Too much intellectuals peering down their noses at the dumb-dumbs.

Your entire attitude and condescending posts are pathetic. You're seriously that worried that you think people criticize film because they think it will make them seem smarter to the rest of CP? Well I guess you can never post in FOI again because criticism of hockey players is just for the #######s that want to make the rest of us feel stupid!!!

Of course it couldn't possibly be that we discuss all of these things, be it tv, film, literature, art, architecture, politics, sports or whatever else, because they are interesting. No, no, you're right. It is out of some bizarre childish my dick is bigger than yours attitude.

[Tinordi]

Leave me out of this.

Dark Knight Rises was not a good movie. That doesn't make me a hater. I love many many movies, they just have to good. I've already explained in detail my reasons for not liking the film.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'd say the movie even took this one step further. Bruce Wayne went to great lengths to portray "Bruce Wayne" as an irresponsible playboy. The real him was neither of the Batman or "Bruce Wayne" characters he portrayed to the public. That was emphasized in the final movie where John Blake talks about Bruce's "mask" when he comes to visit the orphanage.

Yes there is definitely 3 different versions of Bruce Wayne. There is the public Bruce Wayne who shows up at parties and is an arrogant self-entitled prick, there's the real Bruce Wayne who shows when he's speaking with those he trusts (Alfred, Lucious, etc..) and, of course, Batman.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'd say the movie even took this one step further. Bruce Wayne went to great lengths to portray "Bruce Wayne" as an irresponsible playboy. The real him was neither of the Batman or "Bruce Wayne" characters he portrayed to the public. That was emphasized in the final movie where John Blake talks about Bruce's "mask" when he comes to visit the orphanage.

I just realized I'm not really directly responding to you as I am adding my own opinion on the subject and I totally agree with your post.


I thought the voice was for 2 reasons. To hide his identity and to scare people. Neither of those apply when he's alone. I thought he should have said that line as Bruce, not in the growl. (oh noes EE is gonna be so mad at me!!!! Damn intellectuals trying to ruin it for everyone else)

Sure maybe he's in "character" when he's in the suit but I really don't buy this whole idea that Batman is the real person and Bruce Wayne is the mask.

Not only do I not think that was what Nolan was implying but it goes against everything that Batman and Bruce Wayne stand for. Batman is the symbol and the tool that Bruce Wayne can never be. The idea that Bruce is really Batman and that he wears a mask as Bruce Wayne is ridiculous IMO. Bruce Wayne can be a morose mother####er but that's because he has kind of a ####ty life a lot of times. But as Batman he gets some relief from his feelings of anger, guilt and sadness at his parents death (and in the context of the Nolanverse, the death of Rachel and Harvey both).

The mask that Bruce wears, IMO, was referring to the fact that Bruce Wayne isn't all there is. Bruce's sadness and anger has been chanelled into Batman. That's what Blake noticed I think. He noticed that there was something off about Bruce. Although it has a nice message it doesn't really make much sense that some kid just recognized Batman based on the look on some guys face but whatever, I digress.

EDIT: agree with the 3 parts of him. The playboy Bruce isn't him. There was a good scene in BB when he's leaving the restaurant and runs into Rachel where that comes up.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Leave me out of this.

Dark Knight Rises was not a good movie. That doesn't make me a hater. I love many many movies, they just have to good. I've already explained in detail my reasons for not liking the film.

I didn't reference you because of TDK. I referenced you because I've honestly never seen you post anything about anything that wasn't negative. It's either a problem with someone in particular, a post, their idea, the subject matter etc.

I just assumed you were a crusty old man who hated everything. Never even occured to me that you do it for some sort of intellectual superiority.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Leave me out of this.

Dark Knight Rises was not a good movie. That doesn't make me a hater. I love many many movies, they just have to good. I've already explained in detail my reasons for not liking the film.

So does "many, many" movies mean 2 or 3, as that seems to be about all the movies you like.

Although, at least you liked Drive (if I remember correctly), so that's a positive.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Just saw it again yesterday and even though it is probably past the point of anyone caring enough to read it, here are my thoughts. One quick note, I've listened to Kevin Smith's breakdown on the film so if some of this seems similar, that's because it is. I agreed with almost his entire review/analysis from start to finish, including what he calls minor quibbles (and what EE calls movie hating amateur critic dbagery)


-man I loved Bane. Loved the voice, the characterization and unlike others I felt that the fact that he wasn't the leader of the LoS didn't diminish his role in any way at all. In fact his "love" story with Talia, which was really only revealed for about 4 mins towards the end of the film, was wonderful.

- Littlefinger was the CIA guy and Quinn was the cop on the bridge. Nothing to do with anything, just thought I'd mention it. Oh and the doctor was the LOTR nerd from that Zac Effron movie with Matthew Perry (don't ask me why I've seen that)

-Not a huge fan of how they started with Batman already having been on hiatus for 8 years. Seems out of character for Bruce Wayne. It seemed like the speech Alfred gives him about 10 minutes into the movie (about the cafe in France) should have come closer to the midpoint of the film, not right at the start.

-Anne Hathaway was awesome. Loved the scene when she went from being the innocent maid girl to the confident cat burgler in the opening scene at Wayne's house. Even her facial expression went from demure to devious in about 2 seconds. Great ass too.

-I won't get into too many details about the progression in the plot or how some sequences don't seem to fit seemlessly into the movie. Nolan's movies will never be big on having good pacing and I'm not about to rehash all my thoughts on his filmmaking again as I've already done it in this thread. All I'll say is that I found the non-logical or sensical plot elements to be less distracting here than they were in TDK (although I've seen TDK about 15 times so maybe that is why) Which brings me to the one thing I can't resist mentioning again...

-The astronomically stupid stock exchange thing still bothered me. I still can't fathom how no one, NO ONE!!, in Gotham or apparently the world was the slightest bit curious as to why there was a cyber-terrorist attack on the stock exchange one day and the very next day Wayne's trades went through and no one from Bruce Wayne to Wayne Ent to the media even mentioned it. Like I said, Nolan isn't real good at connecting plot points in a good, sensical manner. They are cool enough you kinda forget how silly it was that you got to that point and usually I can let most of it go. This one was too stupid. Only thing "good movie" wise that I couldn't rationalize to myself.

-As mentioned the one nerd thing that bothered me was the name of Dick Greyson. Can't believe they changed that. Just appalling.

-Now I'll actually address some of the other quibbles that have been brought up.

-His knees - I'm surpirsed they didn't explain this better. It would have been such an easy fix to just say that the knee brace thing from Wayne Ent R&D helped restore cartilidge. Instead they just ignored it. Weird. Once again though, it perhaps healed in the prison which resembled the Lazarus Pit from the comics which does have the power to restore life and well being (or some such ####).

-Alfred leaving - heard a few people complain that this was contrived and it was silly for his life long best friend and second father to just walk out on him. Yes it was a bit contrived I'll admit, but it made sense. Otherwise Bane and the riots would have affected him and we can't have Alfred dying now can we? In fact, this is one of the few times I applaud Nolan for actually thinking about the common sense aspect of the plot and realizing that having Alfred remain in Gotham would have been silly. They had to make him leave to stay safe. Instead of Bruce sending him away to stay safe they decided to work an emotional angle into him leaving. Fine with me.

- On what city Gotham is - Just wanted to mention that there was a scene early in the movie where they show Gotham and I'm 90% sure it was NY. Thought I caught a glimpse of the Empire state building. I'm not saying it's supposed to be NY, just another example of them never letting one single city be Gotham. It is an amalgamation of numerous cities.

- On him ending up with Selina - I didn't see it as a stretch at all. When she betrayed Batman, she didn't know he was Bruce. There is even a shot when Bane says whatever about "not compared to the mistake you just made, Mr Wayne". They cut to her and she's surprised. Think about it, yes the random orphan boy who had only seen bruce for 2mins 20 years ago knew instantly (more on that in a sec), but Selina had no idea that he was Bruce at that point. She had a love/hate thing going on with Bruce but didn't know until that moment that the guy she was playing the game of cat and mouse with was actually Batman himself. Plus she was desperate so I could see Bruce forgiving her even though she betrayed Batman.

-Ok JGL as an orphan kid knowing it was him. Again, I get what Nolan wanted to do and that's great. He just didn't really think through the logic of having a 10-12 year old recognize Bruce Wayne as Batman. He'd likely never seen Batman up close in his life, he just knew it was him because of the look on his face? Ugh. Really would have liked the reason to be better but then JGL couldn't have given the speech about the anger and the masks so I guess I can overlook this one. Luckily it doesn't play a huge role in the film.

-I actually really bought pretty much all of the terrorist takeover except one thing. How the eff were the cops trapped? What about the place where JGL found the homeless kid and later retrieved Gordon's body? Did they block that exit? More obviously, what about the manholes? Did they seriously weld shut 5000 manholes? Why wouldn't the cops just walk right out through those? Again, I get what Nolan wanted to do, he just should have done it better.

-Bane dying. I liked the way he died. I was actually less happy about the way Talia died. So you kill your big baddy with a cannon shot from the bat motorcycle thing, sure I'm ok with that. Cool surprise to see Catwoman back to save good ole Batman. But then after that quick death you kill the brains of the operation baddie in a car wreck? yet again, just minor quibbles. God did I love Bane though. Loved the voice too.

-Pretty much any scene this entire trilogy with Michael Caine in it was money. Goddamn that was a good casting choice.

-As mentioned I'm not the biggest fan of the way Nolan sacrifices common sense and logical storytelling to make sure the film fits his vision but damn his vision is good. Every relationship and character arc makes sense and shows incredible depth in the characters (and by extension the actors who play them).

-Quick aside, Katie Holmes was way better than Maggie Gyllenhall. Yeah I said it. I don't even think she's that bad of an actress. (not that bad, didn't say great). Only mentioning this becaue I noticed it is her picture on his desk when Talia visits Bruce.

-Kinda wish they ended it Inception style with Alfred looking up and getting that warm and fuzzy look on his face and then just cutting to black. I get why they wouldn't but that would have been cool.

-Seriously, I can't ####ing believe they made the character's first name Robin. Not cool Nolan. Can we get some sort of nerd edit where the woman says Dick, not Robin? (although in the context of her exact wording it would seem weirdly like she was hitting on him or was a skank)

-One last thing. did anyone else think that the logo for the Gotham football team kinda looked like the old Shrevport Pirates (CFL team) logo? Not exact but I remember thinking of that when I saw it.

Hats off to Nolan and crew. Now I just can't wait until Avengers comes out on bluray so I can watch the #### out of that movie. Can't believe I only saw it once in theatres.


Ok one last, last thing, I saw a preview which I thought looked awesome and now I can't remember it. not the stupid Tom Cruise movie and it wasn't Superman. Anyone have any ideas? I seem to remember it having a lot of famous people in it. Yeah I know, I could just google it but I'm lazy.

[Lego Man]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Ok one last, last thing, I saw a preview which I thought looked awesome and now I can't remember it. not the stupid Tom Cruise movie and it wasn't Superman. Anyone have any ideas? I seem to remember it having a lot of famous people in it. Yeah I know, I could just google it but I'm lazy.

Expendables 2?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by mpaca

Expendables 2?

No it was a drama or action movie. Damn why can't I remember.


Ahh!!! Yes!!! Argo! The movie about the Canadian "film crew" and the Iranian hostage situation with US Diplomats.

Goddamn that looked good. Ben Affleck is gonna be the next Clint Eastwood actor turned director, if he's not already. That had Best Picture written all over it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo_(2012_film)

Although after I saw the trailer all I could think about (other than how good it looked) was that Canadians will be pissed off because our role was for sure downplayed in favor of the Americans.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

One thing about his knee. Not really a valid reason but it's maybe an ode to the comic.

The prison resembles the Lazarus Pit where Ra's Al Ghul goes to recharge when he dies. I think. Never read a Ra's story.

ummm the lazarus pit is the size of a large hot tub with boiling molten lava. hahahahaha

in the comic Batman actually dies after getting bit by a scorpion in round 26 of his sword fight with Ras al ghul to the death. hahaha. Talia throws him into the lazarus pit and he came back alive!

[Coach]

Yeah the TGL thing bothered me a bit too. I agree with other posters here who think the scene may have originally been quite a bit longer but they cut. I think would have made much more sense for BLake to have just figured it out.

"what makes you think im Batman?"
"Cmon, you're gone for 7 years without a trace, come back and magically Batman appears. Seemingly avenging the death of the your parents. Using hi-tech equipment only you could afford and only Wayne Enterprises produces. It's not a stretch."

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

-One last thing. did anyone else think that the logo for the Gotham football team kinda looked like the old Shrevport Pirates (CFL team) logo? Not exact but I remember thinking of that when I saw it.

I swear its a logo from like Madden 2005 that you can use in Creat-A-Team mode.

[trackercowe]

I didn't have a problem with the name since JGL's is completely different than Dick Grayson's. It fact I felt his origin was more compelling and authentic than the one from the comic. Dick Grayson's comic origin is way too similar to what happened to Bruce (and almost every other comic book character).

Having his parents die, then growing up in the orphanage alone, without moving in with Bruce was a better way to go.

As for the name itself, maybe like someone said it made it easier for people to identify who he is. What percentage of moviegoers know what Robin's alter-ego is? Maybe like 50%; naming him Robin makes it easier for everyone to identify what he may become.

That and why would be bother using the name John Blake, if his real name is Dick Grayson? If Nolan had used his real name it would have made a lot sense to use it from the get go, then ruin the surprise at the end.

The Nolan version of Robin is better than any version of Robin in movie/television history. And the best thing is he never actually wears a costume, or becomes a super-hero.

The same goes for Catwoman; although Michelle Pfeiffer was a damn good Catwoman herself, the Nolan version is probably better. And once again he was able to do that without any real backstory, and without even identifying her as Catwoman.

I still think Michael Keaton is the best Batman ever, but Bale is the best Bruce Wayne yet.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

All I'm gonna say about that is that joss Whedon wouldn't have changed it.

If he's so different from the comic book robin then why does he have to be named robin anyway then? Name him dick and it's an Easter egg. Normies dont know the diff and you don't piss off the nerds.

[MrMastodonFarm]

What really impressed me with The Dark Knight Returns is what a huge epic movie it was. I wasn't expecting that.

A large chunk of the movie could easily be a 10 part series on HBO. I'd love to see what Gotham was like sans Batman for the year (?) he was gone. They touched on one area being Catwoman's... how fun would it be to visit Gotham for 10 hour long episodes to see how the city and it's separate War Lords dealt with their areas.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

What really impressed me with The Dark Knight Returns is what a huge epic movie it was. I wasn't expecting that.

A large chunk of the movie could easily be a 10 part series on HBO. I'd love to see what Gotham was like sans Batman for the year (?) he was gone. They touched on one area being Catwoman's... how fun would it be to visit Gotham for 10 hour long episodes to see how the city and it's separate War Lords dealt with their areas.

I think the bomb had 5 months right? There's a point, right before they cut back to Gotham and it's winter, and the tv Bruce is watching says day 84.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I think the bomb had 5 months right? There's a point, right before they cut back to Gotham and it's winter, and the tv Bruce is watching says day 84.

Yeah I couldn't remember exactly that's why I put the question mark there. Still, epic.