Redford: Buyers Remorse?

[Tinordi]

A government run program will never be more efficient than a private alternative.

Categorically false.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Categorically false.

Example?

[Tinordi]

Well, look at cost per capita of our public single payer system vs. costs of the U.S. free market health system. The U.S. is almost double the cost per capita than Canada.

Governments can achieve economies of scale on alot of this stuff and avoid moral hazard which will significantly reduce costs. The reason why health care is so expensive isn't because of a public/private issue. It's because of broad demographic trends and innovation. Every country is dealing with this.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Fire

A government run program will never be more efficient than a private alternative.

It is such an absurd statement that it hardly merits a response. But let's just run through part of the list anyway:

Education? Police? Firefighting? Defence? Immigration/Border control? Environmental regulation? Justice system?

It would almost be worth it to abandon our country to the Afghan-style warlordism that you and your cohort advocate just so that we wouldn't have to listen to you complain any more about paying taxes or living in the country with the highest standard of living in history.

[GP_Matt]

Is it possible to be a Wildrose supporter and slight Libertarian but also think that public health care is most likely better than a fully private system?

Also, police, fire fighting, defence and most of Makarov's examples.

[crazy_eoj]

This report says Alberta's spending is far above other provincial averages.

http://taxpayer.com/alberta/ab-ctf-m...e-cut-spending

[Tinordi]

Yes because you'd recognize that a single pooled insurance option is cheaper than a bunch of competing insurance pools.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Is it possible to be a Wildrose supporter and slight Libertarian but also think that public health care is most likely better than a fully private system?

Also, police, fire fighting, defence and most of Makarov's examples.

It's apparently impossible for most to realize there are many better systems than Canada's involving a mix of private and public options.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by c.t.ner

The point though is that it's all speculation from the Wildrose camp based on one line in a press release and a few searches on Expedia.ca. Comparing this trip to to Oda's foolishness is nothing more that "chicken little" stuff. .

redford better hope you're right.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I agree with this point and the post right below making fun of it. Reason being is that there are good reasons for a PST (if executed properly), but none of them that were communicated to voters back in the spring when the PC's were running banner ads on the internet that said "No cuts. No increases to taxes."

No doubt in my mind, its introduction within the next couple of years is going to be quite a negative surprise for some PC voters who thought that there was an option other than the Wildrose to avoid tax increases. Maybe this thread will be resurrected at that point after Redford has a greater body of work to cast judgement upon.

I don't understand people who are so vicious when it comes to new taxes...when the GST was dropped from 7% to 6% to 5% were this people dancing with joy? No...because it was practically an unnoticeable drop (unless on something as large as a house).

However, I would bet anything that if the PCs introduced a 2% PST there would be a deafening uproar. Even if the funds were ONLY used to top up the Heritage Fund...

It makes my brain hurt

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

It's apparently impossible for most to realize there are many better systems than Canada's involving a mix of private and public options.

Canada has a mix of public and private providers...and while our Healthcare system can definitely be improved...can you kindly point to these obvious systems that are clearly better?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Example?

Air Canada
Petro Canada
CBC
Every Crown corporation ever thought up.

There's very few things the government can manage and be more efficient. The odds are so stacked against them. Government employees are not invented to succeed the way the private sector is, as a result there is a massive gap, in creativity, work ethic and ability to attract of naturally better employees/managers

You should be asking the other guy for an example of anything the government can do better than a private corporation.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Makarov

It is such an absurd statement that it hardly merits a response. But let's just run through part of the list anyway:

Education? Police? Firefighting? Defence? Immigration/Border control? Environmental regulation? Justice system

It would almost be worth it to abandon our country to the Afghan-style warlordism that you and your cohort advocate just so that we wouldn't have to listen to you complain any more about paying taxes or living in the country with the highest standard of living in history.

As Transplant would say:

Example?

If you give proper incentive, the private would undoubtably do all of those better I would say there are things you don't want to risk being conflicted such as a justice system, however I'm sure you there are aspects of police, fire, border etc that can be farmed out. I just look at health care and how expensive, and useless the entire system is and after knowing people in work in it, I'm certain if left unchecked, IE if everyone knows they don't have to compete with anything the entire organization/department becomes dysfunctional.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Air Canada
Petro Canada
CBC
Every Crown corporation ever thought up.

There's very few things the government can manage and be more efficient. The odds are so stacked against them. Government employees are not invented to succeed the way the private sector is, as a result there is a massive gap, in creativity, work ethic and ability to attract of naturally better employees/managers

You should be asking the other guy for an example of anything the government can do better than a private corporation.

I was.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I was.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

As Transplant would say:

Example?

If you give proper incentive, the private would undoubtably do all of those better I would say there are things you don't want to risk being conflicted such as a justice system, however I'm sure you there are aspects of police, fire, border etc that can be farmed out. I just look at health care and how expensive, and useless the entire system is and after knowing people in work in it, I'm certain if left unchecked, IE if everyone knows they don't have to compete with anything the entire organization/department becomes dysfunctional.

And what would the proper incentive be for a privatized police force? Payment per arrest? What about fire department? Payment per fire? How would one provide the proper incentive for a private refugee and immigration department? Christmas bonuses for number of applicants granted permanent resident status? Or, alternatively, for number of refugee claimants denied?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Makarov

And what would the proper incentive be for a privatized police force? Payment per arrest? What about fire department? Payment per fire? How would one provide the proper incentive for a private refugee and immigration department? Christmas bonuses for number of applicants granted permanent resident status? Or, alternatively, for number of refugee claimants denied?

Well, you can start with, if you are terrible at your job, or if you are miserable and it shows in all your interactions with others, or if you care more about your smoke break than your customers ... your fired. That's a start.

What I mean by incentives is not what you are using as examples, I mean that that the employer can cut you if your terrible. No 16 layers of reviews with labour reps and no cross reference to a seniority table to see how much things can slide. If we did that in the public space, you would see a step change in productivity in one day.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Well, you can start with, if you are terrible at your job, or if you are miserable and it shows in all your interactions with others, or if you care more about your smoke break than your customers ... your fired. That's a start.

What I mean by incentives is not what you are using as examples, I mean that that the employer can cut you if your terrible. No 16 layers of reviews with labour reps and no cross reference to a seniority table to see how much things can slide. If we did that in the public space, you would see a step change in productivity in one day.

Why would a private employer employing thousands of employees would be any more immune to collective bargaining than the government?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I just look at health care and how expensive, and useless the entire system is and after knowing people in work in it, I'm certain if left unchecked, IE if everyone knows they don't have to compete with anything the entire organization/department becomes dysfunctional.

This is where your argument falls to pieces. Our healthcare system isn't perfect, but it's far from "useless". A few years ago, my cousin (then in her early 20s and in perfect health) was diagnosed with lymphoma. Luckily, the doctors caught it early, and she received world-class treatment from the healthcare professionals who worked with her. After successfully completing several rounds of chemo, she's now totally cancer-free.

So don't say our healthcare system is useless. My cousin wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for the first-rate quality of her treatment. There are millions of other Canadians who could tell a similar story about themselves or a loved one.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

This is where your argument falls to pieces. Our healthcare system isn't perfect, but it's far from "useless". A few years ago, my cousin (then in her early 20s and in perfect health) was diagnosed with lymphoma. Luckily, the doctors caught it early, and she received world-class treatment from the healthcare professionals who worked with her. After successfully completing several rounds of chemo, she's now totally cancer-free.

So don't say our healthcare system is useless. My cousin wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for the first-rate quality of her treatment. There are millions of other Canadians who could tell a similar story about themselves or a loved one.

I have tons of stories from nurses of people who were screwed by the system, sometimes they knew, sometimes they don't know what happened to them. I'm glad things worked out for your cousin, but it's a sample of one. No argument on this planet falls to pieces due to a sample size of one.