Tim Thomas Stands with Chick-Fil-A (i.e. against gay marriage)

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Pointing the finger soley at religion is to ignore the fundamental flaw in humanity that begat religion, and that is the desire to control others, and be it for good or bad purposes. The removing religion would just leave something else in its place

Meh. This whole "Religion is just a tool used by evil people to control the masses" sounds too much like "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

First I don't agree with the notion that something else would just take its place. People say you take guns away people will just use knives and baseball bats and tire irons. Meh. If people were to REJECT guns and forsake them altogether, it would make it more difficult to kill others.

But secondly, what if what replaced religion was science/fact-based reasoning? I would think critical thinking based on reason would make it MORE difficult to control people.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Here something that I have struggled with. Is an atheist being a good person because it's the right thing to do better than a religious fellow, say the Ned Flanders type, who tries to be a good person because he is thinking of his own self-interest in wanting to go to heaven in the afterlife?

[etherealgirl]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Meh. This whole "Religion is just a tool used by evil people to control the masses" sounds too much like "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

First I don't agree with the notion that something else would just take its place. People say you take guns away people will just use knives and baseball bats and tire irons. Meh. If people were to REJECT guns and forsake them altogether, it would make it more difficult to kill others.

But secondly, what if what replaced religion was science/fact-based reasoning? I would think critical thinking based on reason would make it MORE difficult to control people.

I don't think it's a valid comparison. Humans, like it or not, have a spiritual side and a need to seek meaning. It's intrinsic to who we are. Guns are not. It's not something that many people can simply reject.

Science answers the "how", but not the "why". And maybe there is no real answer to the "why" other than random chance. But that won't stop people from seeking meaning.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Here something that I have struggled with. Is an atheist being a good person because it's the right thing to do better than a religious fellow, say the Ned Flanders type, who tries to be a good person because he is thinking of his own self-interest in wanting to go to heaven in the afterlife?

Isn't there an episode of Friends where they try to find a good deed that is not done for any kind of self-interest?

I think many/most people try to do the right thing AND do things out of self-interest, regardless of whether or not they are religious or an atheist. I don't think one is any better than the other.

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Here something that I have struggled with. Is an atheist being a good person because it's the right thing to do better than a religious fellow, say the Ned Flanders type, who tries to be a good person because he is thinking of his own self-interest in wanting to go to heaven in the afterlife?

oh no not this thread too...I swear this endless religion vs atheism thing needs its own sub-forum.

but back to talking about chicken...with the Chick-Fil-A supporters coming out and organizing an official buy a sandwich with waffle fries day, why haven't any of the other major players in the deep fried poultry market stepped up for the other side? I would totally attend a Popeye's Family Bucket for Gay Marriage event, heck I'd even slum it and go KFC with the sad lack of options we have here in Canada.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

oh no not this thread too...I swear this endless religion vs atheism thing needs its own sub-forum.

but back to talking about chicken...with the Chick-Fil-A supporters coming out and organizing an official buy a sandwich with waffle fries day, why haven't any of the other major players in the deep fried poultry market stepped up for the other side? I would totally attend a Popeye's Family Bucket for Gay Marriage event, heck I'd even slum it and go KFC with the sad lack of options we have here in Canada.

They have Popeye's in Toronto. It's not fair.

EQUAL CHICKEN FOR ALL CANADIANS!!!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Here something that I have struggled with. Is an atheist being a good person because it's the right thing to do better than a religious fellow, say the Ned Flanders type, who tries to be a good person because he is thinking of his own self-interest in wanting to go to heaven in the afterlife?

This reminds me of a story my Russian Grandma (Babushka) told me when I was a child.

The story goes that two young boys were sitting at a crossroads, pitching stones at a witless raven. As they played their innocent game, an old woman walked by carrying a bundle of sticks. Suddenly from the west came a man atop a wild eyed stallion, riding hard. This man (some say he was a Prince) ran right over top of the old crone, knocking her down and scattering her sticks.

The first boy said "we should help that old hag, and she will give us some of her sticks."

The second boy said "we should help that woman, because she needs help" and he did help the old woman. He helped her to her feet and gathered her sticks and walked her home, expecting, and getting, nothing in return.

That was the end of the story. Kind of a lame ending I thought. So I asked my Babushka what happened to these boys.

"The first boy, the greedy one, drowned in the Volga", she said, and looked out the window.

"And the other boy, Babushka", I said, "what happened to him?"

"That boy," she responded, as she dabbed her eyes with a piece of cabbage, "was your Grandfather. His name was Joseph Stalin".

[ernie]

I haven't read the entire thread but while I don't agree with the Cathy family it's their opinion. That's fine. They can do with their money what they want. Perhaps it's been mentioned but this opinion is also not the opinion of every independent owner operator of the restaurants. In addition I have no idea what any restaurant owner believes, has given money to or has said publicly when I go in to enjoy a meal. Ultimately chick-fil-a has the best chicken of any fast food place, better choice of sides, and is beyond polite to a customer ( even if they are gay) so I will likely continue going as regularly as we did before.

[SeeBass]

Well my protest is on, I refuse to drive down to Idaho Falls and eat there.

There that will teach them a lesson.

[BlackRedGold25]

It is rather sad that tons of people jump on Thomas for supporting Chik Fil A while tons of athletes have supported McDonalds, which has caused far more damage to society than Chik Fil A can ever come close to doing, and no one bats an eye. I guess some people view gay marriage as more important than silly little things like our food supply.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold25

It is rather sad that tons of people jump on Thomas for supporting Chik Fil A while tons of athletes have supported McDonalds, which has caused far more damage to society than Chik Fil A can ever come close to doing, and no one bats an eye. I guess some people view gay marriage as more important than silly little things like our food supply.

So you are saying that fast food is bad for society?

Ok, fine.

That's 2 strikes against Chik-Fil-A.

1 strike against McDonalds.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold25

I guess some people view gay marriage as more important than silly little things like our food supply.

Gay marriage is a question about how people treat each other; the food supply issue is a question of how people treat themselves. The first question is infinitely more important than the second.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold25

It is rather sad that tons of people jump on Thomas for supporting Chik Fil A while tons of athletes have supported McDonalds, which has caused far more damage to society than Chik Fil A can ever come close to doing, and no one bats an eye. I guess some people view gay marriage as more important than silly little things like our food supply.

How does one even go about determining and quantifying the adverse affects of McDonalds on modern Western society? Even if you could prove that the franchise has dramatically harmed our culture or our way of life, how do you even go about showing that the world would be better off without McDonalds?

What a silly statement.

[Devils'Advocate]

Oh, I think Food Inc did a very good job of showing the ills of McDonalds.

Back on the topic.. To those that said that the beliefs of the owners should be their own and we should not concern ourselves with those views when choosing what we eat. I disagree. What if the owner was a Nazi who was outspoken about white supremacy?

I personally boycotted Wendy's due to Dave Thomas giving buckets of money to radical pro-life groups, including some that supported killing abortion doctors.

When I buy something, my own personal enjoyment of that thing isn't my only criteria. How it was made, who makes it, and yes, the political, sociological and environmental standings of the company all play a role.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Oh, I think Food Inc did a very good job of showing the ills of McDonalds.

Back on the topic.. To those that said that the beliefs of the owners should be their own and we should not concern ourselves with those views when choosing what we eat. I disagree. What if the owner was a Nazi who was outspoken about white supremacy?

I personally boycotted Wendy's due to Dave Thomas giving buckets of money to radical pro-life groups, including some that supported killing abortion doctors.

When I buy something, my own personal enjoyment of that thing isn't my only criteria. How it was made, who makes it, and yes, the political, sociological and environmental standings of the company all play a role.

Godwin's law in effect at post#234. Just to play devil's advocate, ; )if the guy was outspoken about white supremacy, that would be him excercising free speech. If he refused to hire/serve ethnic minorities, that would be discrimination and punishable under various laws about fair hiring, etc.

You (and most people) would reasonably choose not to patronize his business, and it would fold. That may eventually happen here, we'll see.

[Textcritic]

NSFW!

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Ok, for you since the last example was a little to confusing, lets change it to something that doesn't violate any natural rights.

A car and a truck who want to make little car babies. Fortunately for our example, cars and trucks have no natural rights, so they won't interfere with understanding the real issue at hand, because getting over that hurdle was a real problem.

So a mechanic installs a AI brain into the car and into the truck. they make wonderful car and truck babies, and grow to a large population. Then in a, Micheal Bay directed, cross between Terminator: Salvation and Maximum Overdrive they take over the planet and kill all those people bitching about human rights.

Now that we have just cars and trucks living happily, making car and truck babies, a couple cars, A Smart Car and a Mini Cooper if you are wondering, decide they want to stop putting their tailpipe in the box of the truck and instead want to put it in the hatch of the car. All the Model T and Ford Fairlane cars and trucks are appalled and they start doing crazy stuff like not letting the Smart cars get gas at the stations on Main Street and they start forcing the Mini Coopers off the road and into the bridge embankment.

Things carry on for years like this, and the old Model T cars begin to die and the Ford Fairlanes are so out of their engines that they can't even take a oil change without someone to hold their dipstick for them. Now, some of the other cars and trucks start to realize that it really isn't fair to the Smart Cars and Mini Coopers, so they start to treat them like regular cars.

Eventually, enough people support the Smart Cars and Mini Coopers that they start to get the ability to go to the gas station on Main Street and are not quite as afraid to take the turnpike late at night. However, what the Smart Car and the Mini Cooper really want to do is park in the same garage and be able to visit each other while they are getting body work done at the local shop. However, there are still many old cars that can't even get 2 miles to the gallon, who are bellowing near toxic exhaust as they putter along the road, who have just enough clout to stop them from doing this.

So the Mini Cooper and Smart Cars don't have the same rights as the other cars, so wouldn't that be unfair? Shouldn't we allow them to be able to use the same garage? After all it is a double garage!

I'll take your absurd little world, and bring it along to it's logical conclusion.

The Mini Cooper and Smart Cars (together with their Hummer and F 150 counterparts) have a tough time cause they cannot spend time together in the double garage body shop. The older cars, the Fairlanes and such, eventually rust out and end up at the pick a part. Auto society treats the Mini Coopers and the Smart Cars that are living together the way they want to be treated. Eventually, there are more and more Mini Coopers and Smart Cars living together, after all, this sort of thing has become encouraged. Soon, fewer and fewer new models are coming out, as Mini Coopers and Smart Cars cannot make new models - it's not their fault, it just works that way.

Then one fateful day, BAM! something happens to rock their little automotive world. An unsuspecting Yaris puts an AI brain into a coffee maker, and the entire automotive world is overwhelmed by Espresso machines and Brewmasters, because there wasn't enough of them to hold back the horde. The Model T's might have predicted the autocaust, but no one would have listened to them anyways because they were mean.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Knalus

I'll take your absurd little world, and bring it along to it's logical conclusion.

The Mini Cooper and Smart Cars (together with their Hummer and F 150 counterparts) have a tough time cause they cannot spend time together in the double garage body shop. The older cars, the Fairlanes and such, eventually rust out and end up at the pick a part. Auto society treats the Mini Coopers and the Smart Cars that are living together the way they want to be treated. Eventually, there are more and more Mini Coopers and Smart Cars living together, after all, this sort of thing has become encouraged. Soon, fewer and fewer new models are coming out, as Mini Coopers and Smart Cars cannot make new models - it's not their fault, it just works that way.

Then one fateful day, BAM! something happens to rock their little automotive world. An unsuspecting Yaris puts an AI brain into a coffee maker, and the entire automotive world is overwhelmed by Espresso machines and Brewmasters, because there wasn't enough of them to hold back the horde. The Model T's might have predicted the autocaust, but no one would have listened to them anyways because they were mean.

I'd hardly call that the "logical conclusion" of the metaphor. Humanity is in absolutely no danger of extinction if gay marriage is accepted by society.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'd hardly call that the "logical conclusion" of the metaphor. Humanity is in absolutely no danger of extinction if gay marriage is accepted by society.

You didn't know? The planet is dangerously underpopulated because of the gays.

Actually that is the dumbest argument - it isn't as though giving people the right to get married is going to make people turn gay.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Oh, I think Food Inc did a very good job of showing the ills of McDonalds.

Back on the topic.. To those that said that the beliefs of the owners should be their own and we should not concern ourselves with those views when choosing what we eat. I disagree. What if the owner was a Nazi who was outspoken about white supremacy?

I personally boycotted Wendy's due to Dave Thomas giving buckets of money to radical pro-life groups, including some that supported killing abortion doctors.

When I buy something, my own personal enjoyment of that thing isn't my only criteria. How it was made, who makes it, and yes, the political, sociological and environmental standings of the company all play a role.

The issue with Chik-Fil-A's stance is not only that they believe it--they use the proceeds from their restaurant to support political campaigns that work against equal rights. Therefore, I won't spend my money there, knowing where they could spend said money.

[Daradon]

Dave Thomas did that?!?!

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Knalus

I'll take your absurd little world, and bring it along to it's logical conclusion.

The Mini Cooper and Smart Cars (together with their Hummer and F 150 counterparts) have a tough time cause they cannot spend time together in the double garage body shop. The older cars, the Fairlanes and such, eventually rust out and end up at the pick a part. Auto society treats the Mini Coopers and the Smart Cars that are living together the way they want to be treated. Eventually, there are more and more Mini Coopers and Smart Cars living together, after all, this sort of thing has become encouraged. Soon, fewer and fewer new models are coming out, as Mini Coopers and Smart Cars cannot make new models - it's not their fault, it just works that way.

Then one fateful day, BAM! something happens to rock their little automotive world. An unsuspecting Yaris puts an AI brain into a coffee maker, and the entire automotive world is overwhelmed by Espresso machines and Brewmasters, because there wasn't enough of them to hold back the horde. The Model T's might have predicted the autocaust, but no one would have listened to them anyways because they were mean.

Is this what you actually believe will happen? I find it hard to believe a rational human being could convince themselves of this being the "logical" outcome of gay marriage being legalized.