2012 NFL Offseason Thread

[Displaced Flames fan]

As great a person as he was a player. Always played with great class and sportsmanship.

Well done Mr. Tomlinson.

[Joborule]

Dude was a beast. Look forward to seeing him in Canton.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Interesting poll on ESPN.com with the retirement of Ladanian Tomlinson. Who are the 15 greatest RBs in NFL history? Personally, I don't think its fair to include Adrian Peterson as a possibility even though he could very well be in the top 15 when he's done. I'd like to see all retired players.

Looking at the results overall its clear that those that watched the game before 1990 are much less prevalent on the internet than those who are newer to the game. Not really a surprise I guess, but interesting.

Here are my rankings:

1.Jim Brown

2.Gale Sayers

3.Walter Payton

4.Barry Sanders

5.Earl Campbell

6.Eric Dickerson

7.Marcus Allen

8.Tony Dorsett

9.O.J. Simpson

10.Emmitt Smith

11.LaDainian Tomlinson

12.Marshall Faulk

13.Curtis Martin

14.Jerome Bettis

The overall rankings:


1.Barry Sanders

2.Walter Payton

3.Jim Brown

4.Emmitt Smith

5.LaDainian Tomlinson

6.Eric Dickerson

7.Marshall Faulk

8.O.J. Simpson

9.Marcus Allen

10.Gale Sayers

11.Earl Campbell

12.Tony Dorsett

13.Adrian Peterson

14.Curtis Martin

15.Jerome Bettis



I'm guessing most who have voted never saw Earl Campbell play.

[transplant99]

As we noted in the preceding post, the NFL gathered 12 NFL reporters -- including ESPN's Adam Schefter -- to present further evidence of the New Orleans Saints' bounty program. One newsbit has already emerged with interest to NFC North blog readers.




The bounty on Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre in the 2009 NFC Championship Game was at least $35,000; initially the NFL alleged only that linebacker Jonathan Vilma offered $10,000. According to USA Today's Jarrett Bell, those who contributed to the $35,000 pot included Vilma, defensive lineman Charles Grant, current Saints interim coach Joe Vitt and Mike Ornstein, a marketing official with ties to coach Sean Payton.

just reprehensible if true.

[DropIt]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Interesting poll on ESPN.com with the retirement of Ladanian Tomlinson. Who are the 15 greatest RBs in NFL history? Personally, I don't think its fair to include Adrian Peterson as a possibility even though he could very well be in the top 15 when he's done. I'd like to see all retired players.

Looking at the results overall its clear that those that watched the game before 1990 are much less prevalent on the internet than those who are newer to the game. Not really a surprise I guess, but interesting.

Here are my rankings:

1.Jim Brown

2.Gale Sayers

3.Walter Payton

4.Barry Sanders

5.Earl Campbell

6.Eric Dickerson

7.Marcus Allen

8.Tony Dorsett

9.O.J. Simpson

10.Emmitt Smith

11.LaDainian Tomlinson

12.Marshall Faulk

13.Curtis Martin

14.Jerome Bettis

The overall rankings:


1.Barry Sanders

2.Walter Payton

3.Jim Brown

4.Emmitt Smith

5.LaDainian Tomlinson

6.Eric Dickerson

7.Marshall Faulk

8.O.J. Simpson

9.Marcus Allen

10.Gale Sayers

11.Earl Campbell

12.Tony Dorsett

13.Adrian Peterson

14.Curtis Martin

15.Jerome Bettis



I'm guessing most who have voted never saw Earl Campbell play.

Or Gale SAyers if he is behind Marshall Faulk. I'd have to side with your rankings a little more.

[Montana Moe]

Originally Posted by transplant99

just reprehensible if true.

Indeed.

I used to hate Mike Florio, but I've been coming around to him since he seems to be a lone voice in the wilderness regarding the Saints bounty allegations. He's not reporting whatever the league states as fact, but is actually looking past the surface. It's almost like he remembered that he is/was a lawyer.

“Explosive, compelling” bounty evidence is also irrelevant if not given to NFLPA on Friday

Reporters saw what players saw during bounty hearing

Again, if they had a bounty program in effect, the punishments fit the crime. If the program did exist, they were woefully poor at actually knocking out/carting off anyone during the years in question.

I'm probably guilty of wanting to see some "smoking gun". Which, in this instance, obviously doesn't have to be up to the same standards as a court of law. People get suspended/fined/fired for much less every day. I just hope that people aren't assuming the NFL is being completely forthright and not protecting their own interests at the expense of others.

[Montana Moe]

Originally Posted by DropIt

Or Gale SAyers if he is behind Marshall Faulk. I'd have to side with your rankings a little more.

Sayers' lack of longevity is what hurts him in these "Greatest" lists. It's the same reason that Terrell Davis will likely never be in the HOF.

I'd take Faulk over Sayers, every day.

Sayers Stats

Faulk Stats

Obviously, they're from different eras, but it really isn't even close.

I can see where the Reggie Bush/Gale Sayers comparisons come from. A couple good years, and a whole lot of injuries.

[Drake]

There’s no doubt that the Saints maintained an illegal pay-for-performance program, which rewarded defensive players for good plays and penalized them for mental errors and penalties.

With that caveat, the typed translation of the handwritten notes state “Vilma $10,000 QB,” which the NFL presumably interprets as linebacker Jonathan Vilma pledging $10,000 to anyone who knocked Brett Favre out of the game. The document similarly indicates that defensive end Charles Grant pledged $10,000 with the “QB” designation, as did non-Saints employee Mike Ornstein. The notes likewise reflect that assistant head coach/linebackers coach Joe Vitt contributed $5,000 to the “QB out pool,” and that linebacker Scott Fujita and defensive end Will Smith contributed $2,000 and $5,000, respectively, to the “General Pool.” (Vitt’s lawyer, David Cornwell told PFT on Monday night that Vitt was never accused nor suspected of contributing money to a bounty pool.) Finally, safety Darren Sharper pledged $5,000 for a “Pick 6″ and “QB hits.”

Another document (also a typed version of handwritten notes) lists a variety of names and amounts, with no specific designation as to what the amount reflects. The presence of Ornstein on the list, along with $5,000, suggests that it’s a list of pledges for an unknown game. Vilma is down for $2,000, Smith for $1,500, Grant for $1,500, linebacker Scott Shanle for $500, cornerback Leigh Torrence for $500, and “Evans” (presumably linebacker Troy) for $500. The document in a separate column states “Fujita to DL,” with “$500 Sack” and “$500 FF” below that.

Other documents raise questions, including a 2009 email from Ornstein to Gregg Willliams regarding future contributions from Ornstein, and an October 11, 2009 email from former Saints assistant Mike Cerullo to Williams that says, “Here’s Ornstein’s slide, I also added Jets injury to our Monday slide . . . Here’s what it looks like.” (The Saints played the Jets on October 4; October 11 was the Sunday of the Saints’ bye week.)

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ounty-needles/

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Montana Moe

Sayers' lack of longevity is what hurts him in these "Greatest" lists. It's the same reason that Terrell Davis will likely never be in the HOF.

I'd take Faulk over Sayers, every day.

Sayers Stats

Faulk Stats

Obviously, they're from different eras, but it really isn't even close.

I can see where the Reggie Bush/Gale Sayers comparisons come from. A couple good years, and a whole lot of injuries.

I left stats out of it. Otherwise, I end up with Emmitt Smith in the top 5 and he simply was not good enough to be there.

Sayers was incomparable in terms of pure running talent in my mind.

The injuries were certainly a shame, and while I'm a huge Terrell Davis fan, he doesn't compare to Sayers in any way in terms of talent.

I do understand your argument though.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Oh Drew Brees. Its like the Saints want the entire world to hate them. And more proof what a ticking time bomb Twitter can be

“If NFL fans were told there were ‘weapons of mass destruction’ enough times, they’d believe it,” Brees wrote. “But what happens when you don’t find any????”

When the NFL destroys the Saints when the evidence does come forward, I hope all their suspensions are doubled for their ridiculous actions since this came to light. Classless franchise proving why without the clown known as Brees they'd be the San Antonio Saints.

And FYI, there is more evidence the bounties are real than the WMDs Drew.

[Montana Moe]

Originally Posted by Drake

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ounty-needles/

Cool. Who wrote those notes?

For the non-lawyers in the crowd, this is very unusual. Disputes routinely involve handwritten notes, which may or may not readily be legible. The standard procedure in such situations is to: (1) figure out who wrote the notes; and (2) question that person as to what the notes say. In 18 years of practicing law, I never encountered or heard of a party to any type of litigation converting handwritten notes to typed notes, producing the typed notes, and not producing the handwritten notes for scrutiny and witness questioning.

In this case, at a bare minimum, the NFL should have produced both — especially since the NFLPA will now argue that the typed version does not qualify as an acceptable alternative, and that the typed notes should not be considered because they weren’t produced at least three days before the appeal hearing.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Oh Drew Brees. Its like the Saints want the entire world to hate them. And more proof what a ticking time bomb Twitter can be



When the NFL destroys the Saints when the evidence does come forward, I hope all their suspensions are doubled for their ridiculous actions since this came to light. Classless franchise proving why without the clown known as Brees they'd be the San Antonio Saints.

And FYI, there is more evidence the bounties are real than the WMDs Drew.

Drew is not exactly handling this well, but with the fact that he's high ranking member of in the PA, and this is hitting close to him, I can see that he thinks he's doing the right thing.

As for any other evidence, that really shouldn't have any bearing on the suspensions since all of the evidence taken into account for the suspensions was supposed to be submitted by last Friday. As for what was submitted, the punishments were too severe, IMO.

I know I'm not going to find any sympathy here, and that's OK. My opinion has changed since the beginning of this mess, but I don't really expect anyone else to do the same.

Edit: Ultimately, this was of the players' own doing, they agreed to allow the commissioner be the sole disciplinarian, so I have little sympathy for them, to be honest. They also could have been defending themselves during these appeal hearings, but insisted on complete denial, so I don't expect any reduction in the suspensions.

At this point, I'm just looking forward to getting this season going and winning another division title.

[Senator Clay Davis]

You know what the most damning evidence against the Saints is at this point? Gregg Williams and Sean Payton's silence right now. Notice they aren't out there like the players screaming from the rooftops? They've accepted their penalties because they know they are justified. I think Vilma and others are seriously going to regret it if all the evidence comes out. I'm guessing when it does Vilma and others won't ever play in the NFL again because they'll be facing criminal charges for paid assault.

That he's a high ranking PA member makes this worse because if anyone should be caring about player safety and fairness, its him. He can keep feigning ignorance in his "I knew nothing" defense, but thats such a crock. He was in that locker room, if he didn't know that speaks to a truly horrible leader.

And I guess you can enjoy another division title. And you can enjoy being 2009 Super Bowl Champs*

[Bobblehead]

I don't think you can make any judgments based on Williams' and Payton's silence. They may have decided to accept the punishment rather than drag it out and have it as a distraction. They appealed as much as they could.

And Moe, I'm not sure how much of a smoking gun there would be. A lot of this sounds very ad hoc. Most of it would simply have been verbal. I'm actually a bit surprised there has been as much computer record recovered as has been reported.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

And I guess you can enjoy another division title. And you can enjoy being 2009 Super Bowl Champs*

Someone needs to explain to me how Bountygate somehow results in an asterisked Super Bowl win. Were the bounties horrible? Yes. Did they severely endanger player safety? Absolutely. But did they somehow provide the Saints with an unfair tactical advantage (aka cheating, like Spygate)? No. So why would the Super Bowl win be asterisked, I don't even get it. Because people said the same thing about the Pats a few years earlier, so lets just do it again?

On a side note, I don't like the reason why it happened, but I love, LOVE how hated the Saints have become with other fans. I got so sick of how they became "America's Team" from '06 onwards, I'm glad that's over with now. Let the hate flow.

And agreed MM, just get opening kick-off going already. I think I even enjoyed last year's lockout off-season to this one.

[Montana Moe]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I'm actually a bit surprised there has been as much computer record recovered as has been reported.

Indeed. Looks like there may actually be something to the "dumb jocks" analogy after all.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Someone needs to explain to me how Bountygate somehow results in an asterisked Super Bowl win. Were the bounties horrible? Yes. Did they severely endanger player safety? Absolutely. But did they somehow provide the Saints with an unfair tactical advantage (aka cheating, like Spygate)? No. So why would the Super Bowl win be asterisked, I don't even get it. Because people said the same thing about the Pats a few years earlier, so lets just do it again?

On a side note, I don't like the reason why it happened, but I love, LOVE how hated the Saints have become with other fans. I got so sick of how they became "America's Team" from '06 onwards, I'm glad that's over with now. Let the hate flow.

And agreed MM, just get opening kick-off going already. I think I even enjoyed last year's lockout off-season to this one.

So, if they had succeded in knocking Favre out of the NFC Championship, that wouldn't have been an advantage? I guess had Tavaris been in at the end of the game he doesn't make such a spectacularly stupid INT, but of course with Tavaris in the Saints likely win by multiple TDs and the end of the game is irrelavent. Their intent was to deliberately injure players and thus make them unable to contribute at full health (or at all). If you're telling me facing Brian Hoyer isn't any different than facing Tom Brady, or Tom Brady at 100% versus Tom Brady at 70%, you're simply insane.

The asterisk stuff doesn't even matter does it? Even if the NFL stripped the Saints of the title, would it matter to Saints fans? They aren't going to act like that night didn't happen. So sadly you'll have to get used to it like Pats fans have had to. I also think Payton's and Williams silence is incredibly damning. You don't think Payton couldn't use that $8million hes going to forfeit for being suspended? Or you know, actually being able to coach the team he helped build? Or Williams being banned indiffinetely? You don't think he wants to clear his name? If they thought they could get their punishments overturned, they would be trying to do so. That they aren't tells me the evidence against them is strong, and that they'd lose any appeal. Que the "But Goodell is judge, jury, executioner crap". You know who gave him that? The players. Wanna guess why? They didn't want less of a cut of revenues. So complaining now that you gave the guy too much power rings hollow to me.

Ironically, your last point is a great reason why the NFL isn't persecuting the Saints. I mean seriously, since 2006, outside the Boys, I don't think any team has gotten more national love and pub than the Saints. 5 to 6 national TV games a year, if not for Bountygate they might have played 3 straight opening night games. The NFL doesn't give that honor to teams it hates.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So, if they had succeded in knocking Favre out of the NFC Championship, that wouldn't have been an advantage? I guess had Tavaris been in at the end of the game he doesn't make such a spectacularly stupid INT, but of course with Tavaris in the Saints likely win by multiple TDs and the end of the game is irrelavent. Their intent was to deliberately injure players and thus make them unable to contribute at full health (or at all). If you're telling me facing Brian Hoyer isn't any different than facing Tom Brady, or Tom Brady at 100% versus Tom Brady at 70%, you're simply insane.

Fine, but my point is, how is hitting a player too hard an unfair advantage the Saints had that no other team could do? (in other words, how is it cheating, which is what an * next to a championship would indicate). Sure you could say a couple of the hits of Favre were unnecessarily hard, maybe even illegal on the double tackle. But that's what the refs are for, right? Especially if you hit a QB these days, a rough/illegal hit results in a penalty, and depending on the severity, even a fine/suspension. So how does that give the Saints any kind of unfair advantage over other teams?

As for the rest of the post, when did I ever complain about Goodell and his rulings on this? Once they got doled out, I think they were too severe, but over-all the way I see it is Payton, Williams, Loomis did this to themselves, and I am upset/bewildered with them about continuing these programs for a full 2 years after knowing they're being investigated. My post wasn't about that, but quite simply about questioning why the '09 Super Bowl win deserves an asterisk, implying it was unfair/not legit. Which I think is untrue, and ridiculous.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Lets be honest: All the asterisk stuff is more for inter-team sh*t talking. No one thinks it, its just fun to taunt. I personally love taunting Jets and Eagles fans about that pre-season Super Bowl they played in last year. This year seems to be the Texans and 49ers in the pre-season Super Bowl. For the record, I am a Bucs fan so as a division foe, you can expect it twice as bad from me. Feel free to make Talib jokes and Creamsicle jokes. I love divisional rivalries, nothing beats em.

It isn't cheating in terms of technical rule violations, its cheating because it violates the spirit of the game: You tackle to stop the opposing player, you don't hit with the intention of injuring. Essentially they are motivated not by the game, but by the chance to make some extra money and be the man.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Lets be honest: All the asterisk stuff is more for inter-team sh*t talking. No one thinks it, its just fun to taunt. I personally love taunting Jets and Eagles fans about that pre-season Super Bowl they played in last year. This year seems to be the Texans and 49ers in the pre-season Super Bowl. For the record, I am a Bucs fan so as a division foe, you can expect it twice as bad from me. Feel free to make Talib jokes and Creamsicle jokes. I love divisional rivalries, nothing beats em.

It isn't cheating in terms of technical rule violations, its cheating because it violates the spirit of the game: You tackle to stop the opposing player, you don't hit with the intention of injuring. Essentially they are motivated not by the game, but by the chance to make some extra money and be the man.

So in other words, its not cheating, its just immoral. It's definitely a shady side of the game they needed to get rid of. And agreed with MM earlier about if the Saints were trying to put people in the hospital from 09-11, they sure were terrible at it.

And fair enough, good to see more NFC South fans joining in here. I'm kinda jealous of all the NFC North battles that go on in here, need some more South fans to chirp (Falcons fans would be ideal in that department). I look forward to watching us pummel your poor-broken-man's Cam Newton at the pirate ship next year.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Actual cheating to win simply doesn't happen in the NFL. What the Patriots did wasn't cheating, it was an attempt to possibly gain an advantage, but I really don't think taping a team's walkthrough in an attempt to steal signals (which of course can change at anytime) is really cheating either. But this is the NFL and fans love to taunt. So the Pats and Saints will have to accept all the *** and cheater taunts. Could always remind people of the ring you have and that should shut many of them the hell up.

When the Falcons and Panthers do more than just make a Super Bowl, maybe I'll be interested in hearing them talk. Falcons fans are the worst, most of them on suicide watch after Vick and now acting like Matty Ice is somehow going to lead them somewhere (I guess 2 points in a playoff game is somewhere). Carolina fans annoiting Scam as a HOFer after one season makes me laugh a lot because, well a) For all his alledge greatness, they went 6-10 and really 4-10 cause beating the Bucs last year doesn't count, and b) Did they think the same of Scott Mitchell and Derek Anderson after they had 1 great season?