April 23 2012: Alberta Provincial Election

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But in a way the oil is Canada's as a whole. Without the oil in this province there would be no outgoing transfer payment issues, but another province would have the oil, and we'd be the ones begging for transfer payments. If Alberta's eastern border was 50km west or southern border a couple hundread kms south, this province would likely be as poor or poorer than Quebec.

Oilsands revenue is actually fairly modest...for now...when the royalties change it will be another story (the royalties were lower until the epic capital costs incurred by industry are recovered...then they rise dramatically)

Alberta has boomed due to conventional natural gas recently...but that is slowing down...hopefully unconventional natural gas technology will help.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But in a way the oil is Canada's as a whole. Without the oil in this province there would be no outgoing transfer payment issues, but another province would have the oil, and we'd be the ones begging for transfer payments. If Alberta's eastern border was 50km west or southern border a couple hundread kms south, this province would likely be as poor or poorer than Quebec.

Ok, not only do you not know who owns the oil resource, or the way that the transfer payment issues are, you don't know where the petroleum resources are located in the province, nor does it appear you know where your own province is located. If Alberta's southern border was a couple hundred km's south - in other words, we would then own the majority of Montana's oil fields - we would be poor? Cause we were bigger and had more resources???

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Slava

I added to your statement to make it a little more accurate.

Fortunately, Alberta has had the forsight to develop many more resources than just 'oil sands'. As we are all aware, I'm sure, Quebec sits upon major natural gas deposits. Natural Gas development was the lifeblood of the Alberta economy for many decades, could you explain why those resources were never developed?

Also, I'm confused by your statement regarding Federal Liberal grants being the main reason why the Oil Sands were developed. Could you explain what you mean, and maybe quantify them against the major Alberta investment initiatives (mainly the oil sands investment royalty holiday program)?

[Fozzie_DeBear]

I (and all my colleagues) in the advanced technology sector are really concerned about the WRP...

We have a world-class innovation system that really helps our economy...I am not sure Rosers will mess with that in a clumsy attempt to shrink government.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Fortunately, Alberta has had the forsight to develop many more resources than just 'oil sands'. As we are all aware, I'm sure, Quebec sits upon major natural gas deposits. Natural Gas development was the lifeblood of the Alberta economy for many decades, could you explain why those resources were never developed?

Also, I'm confused by your statement regarding Federal Liberal grants being the main reason why the Oil Sands were developed. Could you explain what you mean, and maybe quantify them against the major Alberta investment initiatives (mainly the oil sands investment royalty holiday program)?

The Quebecers see themselves as green...that's likely why the Natural Gas hasn't been exploited.

Or they are waiting until they really need them before exploiting them

[kn]

Well, Quebec has banned fracking pending studies. If it becomes a trend, it directly impacts the company I work for although our clients are mainly involved in the northeast part of the US. Just an example of differing outlooks and priorities...

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...785/story.html

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by First Lady

Just FYI

Noon hour leaders debate will be live streamed here

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ers-forum.html

Hmm, wonder if anyone will mention Mar being reinstated?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Knalus

Ok, not only do you not know who owns the oil resource, or the way that the transfer payment issues are, you don't know where the petroleum resources are located in the province, nor does it appear you know where your own province is located. If Alberta's southern border was a couple hundred km's south - in other words, we would then own the majority of Montana's oil fields - we would be poor? Cause we were bigger and had more resources???

My bad, should have said Northern border. Dumb moment on my behalf. Lets just say Alberta has no oil and another province does. We would then likely be below the national standard and thus receive equalization money, likely out of whatever province has the oil. So perhaps saying specifically the oil itself is all of Canada's is wrong. But the revenue that oil generates is generally shared by all Canadians through transfer payments.

[Regular_John]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But in a way the oil is Canada's as a whole. Without the oil in this province there would be no outgoing transfer payment issues, but another province would have the oil, and we'd be the ones begging for transfer payments. If Alberta's eastern border was 50km west or southern border a couple hundread kms south, this province would likely be as poor or poorer than Quebec.

I'm really not sure what map of Alberta your using, but I'm not seeing any way we could move the province 50-200km in any direction and end up poorer than Quebec as you put it.

[Kybosh]

That, and that map only shows the oil sands. There is a lot more to Alberta (and the areas around Alberta) than just the oil sands in terms of natural resources.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by kn

I'm not sure what you're point is. Alberta should not negotiate the spending formula to limit how much it transfers?

My point is that if Alberta is going to insist on renegotiating the equalization transfer formula, it should at least understand how it works. Smith clearly doesn't.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

http://daveberta.ca/alberta-election...ard-education/

An interesting look at Danielle's time on the CBE. Dysfunctional really does seem to be the right word to describe it.

No kidding, what a gong show. It come across like Smith was actually one of the more adult members of the board. One less thing I'll hold against her.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Thanks, it always disheartening to see how few people actually understand what equalization is and how it works.

The concept is so amendable to distortion and illusion by talk radio "the federal government is forcing us to pay money to Quebec!!!"

Quebec manipulates the process to its advantage and that is what ticks off other provinces....when the fact remains that the other provinces could do some manipulation of their own as well.

For instance, Quebec artificially reduces its fiscal capacity by allowing provincially ownded Hydro-Quebec to charge consumers, especially large industrial ones, a price far below market value. Quebec shortchanges itself on the potential revenue, and in the process qualifies for higher equalization payments. This does not imply that Quebec is any poorer, only that they are smart enough to manipulate the process.

Also, profits from crown owned hydro utilities get treated as business income rather than resource revenues and that minimizes their negative impact on equalization payments.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

I think that Clay made the statement in error...but the main point that Alberta lucked out by having ridiculous conventional/unconventional oil/gas resources makes sense.

Before the Leduc discovery (in 1947) Saskatchewan was a richer province than Alberta. Basically if you want to know what Alberta would look like without an energy sector look east...

Or just imagine 40% of the economy gone...

Good report here if interested

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I think people need to remember that point: This oil is not Alberta's, it's Canada's as a whole. We shouldn't have a probblem sharing with everyone else.

And I'm not defending Quebec at all. They have made awful economic decisions since the PQ was in power.

No the oil is not Canada's as a whole. The Constitution guarantees provinces the rights to and the jurisdiction over the natural resources found in the provinces.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by redforever

Quebec manipulates the process to its advantage and that is what ticks off other provinces....when the fact remains that the other provinces could do some manipulation of their own as well.

For instance, Quebec artificially reduces its fiscal capacity by allowing provincially ownded Hydro-Quebec to charge consumers, especially large industrial ones, a price far below market value. Quebec shortchanges itself on the potential revenue, and in the process qualifies for higher equalization payments. This does not imply that Quebec is any poorer, only that they are smart enough to manipulate the process.

Also, profits from crown owned hydro utilities get treated as business income rather than resource revenues and that minimizes their negative impact on equalization payments.

As I understand it, the system is based on potential revenues rather than actual revenues (this is certainly the case with respect to tax revenue; I'm just not sure about natural resource revenues.) Anyway, this is interesting. Do you have a source you could point me to so that I could learn more about this?

[Senator Clay Davis]

As I think Jacks mentioned, this election needs to end. My work productivity has declined steadily as the election has progressed.

[kn]

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

I think that Clay made the statement in error...but the main point that Alberta lucked out by having ridiculous conventional/unconventional oil/gas resources makes sense.

Before the Leduc discovery (in 1947) Saskatchewan was a richer province than Alberta. Basically if you want to know what Alberta would look like without an energy sector look east...

Or just imagine 40% of the economy gone...

Good report here if interested

That's a great looking report, thanks for the post. I have just glanced but haven't seen much comparing the government role in oil and gas development. As we can see today, Saskatchewan has immense oil and gas resources, not quite as large as Alberta but certainly formidable. However, these were largely untapped until the Saskatchewan Party came to power and made oil and gas investment and development much more profitable (ie: regulations in line with AB). Do they cover that topic in any detail?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

That's a great looking report, thanks for the post. I have just glanced but haven't seen much comparing the government role in oil and gas development. As we can see today, Saskatchewan has immense oil and gas resources, not quite as large as Alberta but certainly formidable. However, these were largely untapped until the Saskatchewan Party came to power and made oil and gas investment and development much more profitable (ie: regulations in line with AB). Do they cover that topic in any detail?

Or perhaps the price of crude oil rising to over $100/barrel also made such development more profitable? Why didn't that stupid NDP government think of that?!