2012 NFL Offseason Thread

[themedicineman]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You're right, but the email was sent to Payton, so he was aware of it.

Aware, yes. But now according to the Saints, Payton and Loomis both informed Williams that he needed to stop his bounty system and obviously if they did he did not comply. He was shown the door very unceremoniously at the end of the season as well. Also another case for Payton and Loomis is that there was nothing of the sort in place before Williams arrived. Draw from it your own conclusions but the penalties in mine and many's eyes are far too harsh.

State of Louisiana also getting involved:

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.s...esolution.html

Doubt that means much of anything though.

I really am not sure what is best here though. If Payton gets his suspension reduced to 8 or 12 games I ask myself if I'd rather have a full season of Parcells or half a season of say Carmichael and half a season of Payton. IMO the best thing would be getting Parcells for the full season so maybe it's for the best if the suspension isn't reduced.

[M*A*S*H 4077]

So I finally listened to the leaked audio from Gregg Williams. From how it was all built up I was expecting something far worse. That... I dunno... Putting the bounty on it is wrong and he should be punished for that. But his speech that was leaked there? I don't know how I feel about that one. I would be willing to wager that just about every football coach ever has given a similar speech. Maybe the targeting the head was a little over the top, but really, nothing strikes me as that out of place for the defensive side of the ball. And from the reaction around the NFL amongst the players, it seems the defensive players haven't taken much offense to this at all.

Found a transcript. Man, I've had coaches give us very similar speeches. http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_...gregg-williams

[valo403]

Originally Posted by M*A*S*H 4077

So I finally listened to the leaked audio from Gregg Williams. From how it was all built up I was expecting something far worse. That... I dunno... Putting the bounty on it is wrong and he should be punished for that. But his speech that was leaked there? I don't know how I feel about that one. I would be willing to wager that just about every football coach ever has given a similar speech. Maybe the targeting the head was a little over the top, but really, nothing strikes me as that out of place for the defensive side of the ball. And from the reaction around the NFL amongst the players, it seems the defensive players haven't taken much offense to this at all.

Found a transcript. Man, I've had coaches give us very similar speeches. http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_...gregg-williams

I played for a decade and never once heard a coach give a speech even remotely close to that one. I have never heard a coach talk about targeting an opponents head, and I have certainly never heard a coach talk about taking out an opponents knee. That speech was disgusting.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by valo403

I played for a decade and never once heard a coach give a speech even remotely close to that one. I have never heard a coach talk about targeting an opponents head, and I have certainly never heard a coach talk about taking out an opponents knee. That speech was disgusting.

Agree completely....Saints fans are doing nothing but trying to deflect the blame or trying to justify things if they believe that nonsense.

Payton should get his year and Williams should never be allowed to work in the NFL again...period.

And when the suspensions come down for the gaggle of players implicated, they too should serve there sentence without appeal and everyone in the game learns a lesson.

[M*A*S*H 4077]

Apparently I've just played for a couple blood thirsty coaches...

To be fair, I would never advocate stuff like that in my own coaching. And I don't know how well the players followed through on their coaches' orders. I can only recall one dirty hit from them of the last little while. I could be totally wrong as I don't watch a tonne of Saints games.

EDIT: This article is what I was talking about: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...ech-is-typical

[Flames in 07]

The players clearly didn't think much of that speech since there were no head or knee shots. Im glad williams is out of the league for awhile, he deserves it, but the league has convicted felons who served time in federal pen's and they are back in the league. So a lifetime suspension for Williams would be a little rich when compared to some of the other people who were allowed back in the league. I mean, didn't Ray Ray kill a guy?

The specific words about the head and knees aside, that speech is just football. Mike Golic said it best, football is like a sausage. Most people wouldn't like what's inside if they really knew what was there ... so just enjoy the product and move on. I was around football for a long time, and the speech was completely typical (again, outside of the specific stuff about the head and knee).

What I think is most disgusting is the little puke who released the audio. After learning why he was recording, to build material so Gleason's son can learn who is dad is after he dies of his terminal disease, and to take that material for his own agenda/promotion is awful. Now marginal fans who only know football from what they see on TV or XBOX conclude that one coach or one team is dirty and the rest of the teams are of a different class is a shame.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

The players clearly didn't think much of that speech since there were no head or knee shots. Im glad williams is out of the league for awhile, he deserves it, but the league has convicted felons who served time in federal pen's and they are back in the league. So a lifetime suspension for Williams would be a little rich when compared to some of the other people who were allowed back in the league. I mean, didn't Ray Ray kill a guy?

The specific words about the head and knees aside, that speech is just football. Mike Golic said it best, football is like a sausage. Most people wouldn't like what's inside if they really knew what was there ... so just enjoy the product and move on. I was around football for a long time, and the speech was completely typical (again, outside of the specific stuff about the head and knee).

What I think is most disgusting is the little puke who released the audio. After learning why he was recording, to build material so Gleason's son can learn who is dad is after he dies of his terminal disease, and to take that material for his own agenda/promotion is awful. Now marginal fans who only know football from what they see on TV or XBOX conclude that one coach or one team is dirty and the rest of the teams are of a different class is a shame.

Uhhh...no, which is why he isnt in prison.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Uhhh...no, which is why he isnt in prison.

iledgedly. Maybe he just watched, maybe he did it, we'll never know. However Stallworth did, Vick sorta got into a touch of trouble I recall. You could also fill an auditorium with wives, GF's strangers who have have been beaten up.

If you want to argue about do what degree Lewis was involved in that guy's death that's fine, but the main point is that all kinds of convicted and strongly suspected criminals litter the league. For people to want Williams to never coach again, to me is probably just being emotional over the tape being released a couple days ago.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

iledgedly. Maybe he just watched, maybe he did it, we'll never know. However Stallworth did, Vick sorta got into a touch of trouble I recall. You could also fill an auditorium with wives, GF's strangers who have have been beaten up.

If you want to argue about do what degree Lewis was involved in that guy's death that's fine, but the main point is that all kinds of convicted and strongly suspected criminals litter the league. For people to want Williams to never coach again, to me is probably just being emotional over the tape being released a couple days ago.

No...what it is is sending a message to ALL NFL types that deliberately trying to injure another guy by targetting his head will no longer be acceptable in the game. Nothing emotional about that.

As for lewis, he was never even tried in the murder case and those that were, were acquitted IIRC.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Agree completely....Saints fans are doing nothing but trying to deflect the blame or trying to justify things if they believe that nonsense.

Payton should get his year and Williams should never be allowed to work in the NFL again...period.

And when the suspensions come down for the gaggle of players implicated, they too should serve there sentence without appeal and everyone in the game learns a lesson.

The worst part of this whole thing is that many people think like this.

If you don't think every single saint is the worst human in the world then you must be a homer. If you don't think Peyton and Williams should ever coach again you are just a homer.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm a football fan first, and a fan of an individual team second. Paying bounties, 'testing' injuries and late hits are two things. Things that shouldn't be in the sport, and completely prevaliant in professional football.

It feels like to me fans from other teams, particularly competitive ones, masking competitive motivations with moral ones. That or they really have never been around the game. I learned long ago (through watching the BCS opposition develop) that people believe whatever pop media feed them. Dozens of posts already about the Williams speech about headshots, but how many about Victor Cruz? He said the exact same stuff about the exact same person. Not a single person wishes he'd never be part of the NFL again ... not until ESPN teaches people he should be out of football.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by transplant99

No...what it is is sending a message to ALL NFL types that deliberately trying to injure another guy by targetting his head will no longer be acceptable in the game. Nothing emotional about that.

As for lewis, he was never even tried in the murder case and those that were, were acquitted IIRC.

Great, that's a good message, and a large challenge given the culture of football in general and especially the NFL. But can't the guy learn and change? Furthermore, what about all the other comments from players and coaches over the years that have to do with headshots? You have the same energy about kicking all of them out? If not, its just the emotion from the tape.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

The worst part of this whole thing is that many people think like this.

If you don't think every single saint is the worst human in the world then you must be a homer. If you don't think Peyton and Williams should ever coach again you are just a homer.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm a football fan first, and a fan of an individual team second. Paying bounties, 'testing' injuries and late hits are two things. Things that shouldn't be in the sport, and completely prevaliant in professional football.

It feels like to me fans from other teams, particularly competitive ones, masking competitive motivations with moral ones. That or they really have never been around the game. I learned long ago (through watching the BCS opposition develop) that people believe whatever pop media feed them. Dozens of posts already about the Williams speech about headshots, but how many about Victor Cruz? He said the exact same stuff about the exact same person. Not a single person wishes he'd never be part of the NFL again ... not until ESPN teaches people he should be out of football.

People can think however they like and for you to insinuate that its merely because of "pop media" is as condescending as it gets.

And no i dont believe that payton should be out of football forever, but his suspension is fair and after he is done, should and will be back in. Williams on the other hand was warned twice to stop...and didnt. His big FU to Goodell and his own bosses has him where he should be and made an example of...his priviledge of working in the NFL is revoked for good.

[DropIt]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

iledgedly. Maybe he just watched, maybe he did it, we'll never know. However Stallworth did, Vick sorta got into a touch of trouble I recall. You could also fill an auditorium with wives, GF's strangers who have have been beaten up.

If you want to argue about do what degree Lewis was involved in that guy's death that's fine, but the main point is that all kinCommds of convicted and strongly suspected criminals litter the league. For people to want Williams to never coach again, to me is probably just being emotional over the tape being released a couple days ago.

The difference here, is that none of these other things happened on a football field. Stallworth, Marshall, Burress, Vick are all football players who got into trouble off the job and away from the field. Williams brought all this controversy into the sport and this is in the hands of the NFL first and foremost.

'Committing Assault to Win' - Brought to you by the NFL.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by transplant99

People can think however they like and for you to insinuate that its merely because of "pop media" is as condescending as it gets.

And no i dont believe that payton should be out of football forever, but his suspension is fair and after he is done, should and will be back in. Williams on the other hand was warned twice to stop...and didnt. His big FU to Goodell and his own bosses has him where he should be and made an example of...his priviledge of working in the NFL is revoked for good.

Well believe me, I hate Williams more than most. Hey threw away that playoff game, and threw what looked like the best offense in the history of football in the garbage pail for the season. I was happy when he was fired. I think Ron Mexico had a few FU's for the NFL, and he seems to be a better person now because he's been given another chance. At that time I didn't want to see him in football again, but I learned something about people in professional sports changing with him over the last couple years.

As for being condescending, I think theres a big world out there you aren't familiar with. You better explain to all the advertisers all over the world that the media doesn't influence people and they have been wasting their money for decades on advertisements. Part of my job is understanding how people are influenced and people are swaying by much, much more subtle things than pop media.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Well believe me, I hate Williams more than most. Hey threw away that playoff game, and threw what looked like the best offense in the history of football in the garbage pail for the season. I was happy when he was fired. I think Ron Mexico had a few FU's for the NFL, and he seems to be a better person now because he's been given another chance. At that time I didn't want to see him in football again, but I learned something about people in professional sports changing with him over the last couple years.

As for being condescending, I think theres a big world out there you aren't familiar with. You better explain to all the advertisers all over the world that the media doesn't influence people and they have been wasting their money for decades on advertisements. Part of my job is understanding how people are influenced and people are swaying by much, much more subtle things than pop media.

You just cant help yourself can you?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You just cant help yourself can you?

well ... media doesn't influence people? Really? Cmon. Just think about that for a minute, to say its condescending to say that people are influenced by what the media tells them is a little naive no? If this was a new, fresh topic and someone said, you know the media has the ability to influence people are you really going to be up in arms about it?

As for the other comment from the other poster, I guess I just don't see why something being on field or off field is the million dollar datapoint that determines if you get a lifetime ban. I just don't see why that's so important.

[DropIt]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

well ... media doesn't influence people? Really? Cmon. Just think about that for a minute, to say its condescending to say that people are influenced by what the media tells them is a little naive no? If this was a new, fresh topic and someone said, you know the media has the ability to influence people are you really going to be up in arms about it?

As for the other comment from the other poster, I guess I just don't see why something being on field or off field is the million dollar datapoint that determines if you get a lifetime ban. I just don't see why that's so important.

Really? You dont see how the reaaction is different when something happens on your clock, your property? under your name vs the opposite?
It's like getting a DUI in the company vehicle, you're going to get fired. If you get a DUI in your own vehicle, your going to need to carpool to work

[transplant99]

NFL types on the Williams speech...

Jason Taylor

Williams is "trippin'." He added: "Playing hard and hitting hard is one thing. Going after ACL's and heads......not cool. … Saying someone flinches..ok. Wanting to hit everything moving and intimidate...ok. Calling someone a prima donna..fine ACL and Head... NO!"

Former NFL defensive lineman Seth Payne

"Guys claiming Gregg Williams' behavior was normal in NFL are out of line. Played for 5 DC's and never heard anything remotely like that. … I'm not saying it didn't happen elsewhere. I'm just saying you can't claim it's business as usual in the NFL."

Steve Mariucci said he heard portions of Williams' speech on the radio while in the car and "almost drove off the road." Mariucci said he "was shocked and disturbed" and that Williams "obviously crossed the line."

Brian Billick

"I've been in this game, man and boy, for better than 40 years," Billick said, "and the back of my hair bristled up a little bit. Because this whole process, people say, everybody does that. Well, no we don't. I've never in my 40 years heard or heard of somebody talking with that specificity, the intent to injure a player. That was shocking to me."

Josh Sitton

"Gregg Williams sounds like a complete [expletive]. Glad he got suspended!"

When asked by a follower if Packers coaches talk to players that way, Sitton replied: "hell no."

"I want to be clear. Our sport is violent and you are supposed to hurt one another, but this guy took it over the top. trying to take someone out of a game or end a career is a chicken [expletive] move! we work our entire lives to make it to the NFL. And some guy wants to pay players to hurt people. NOT cool! next thing you know some [expletive] will be waiting for me by my car with a crowbar! That's some Tonya Harding [expletive]!"

[Drake]

Adam Schefer:
Sean Payton’s suspension without pay for the 2012 NFL season will begin on April 16.

The suspensions without pay of Mickey Loomis for eight games and Joe Vitt for six games will begin at the end of the preseason.

At end of suspensions, Commissioner will review status of each of the three individuals to determine their eligibility for reinstatement.

[Montana Moe]

I'm glad the appeals are over, time to get on with the season.

The Saints will play with a chip on their shoulder this year. The offense will be at full throttle, and be looking to pick up the slack for a defense that will be missing some pieces. I'm actually looking forward to seeing the post-Williams defense. They've picked up some very good FA's, and Steve Spagnuolo runs a great system.

I hope they go on to have a strong season, primarily because they're my favorite team, but secondarily to keep fellow Saints fans bitching and moaning about the punishments to a minimum.