Was that not the same play that the failed deke attempt would catch Burns out of position and result in Sven getting possession of the puck just prior to him scoring the tying goal? or was that a different play?
I was just saying that it isn't a case of Sven finding out that his moves that work in junior won't work in the NHL. They may not work as often, or have to be used a little differently but he can still make some magic out there.
Yet he was glued to the bench when we actually had the LEAD.
That is what really irks me about Brent Sutter, Why must he change his mindset when we have a lead!!. Nonetheless I was happy to see Brent utilize Sven heavily in the final frame as he absolutely deserved that opportunity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kehatch
That is a great point and I agree. Its a big part of our inability to maintain a lead. The players collapse in a 4-man box in front of the next. All aggression is lost. And the players that got us the lead see their ice time go down and we take the foot off the gas.
Not entirely true last night.
We had the lead for 3 minutes of total play time. Iginla scored with 1:33 left in the 2nd period, Sarich took a penalty with 10 seconds left, and the Sharks scored 1:22 into the third period.
If Bartschi didn't get a shift while we had the lead, it was because we were SH for it.
It was more that with the team tied in third, and missing a scoring LW (Glencross), more ice time was available for Sven in the third.
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Yet he was glued to the bench when we actually had the LEAD.
That is what really irks me about Brent Sutter, Why must he change his mindset when we have a lead!!. Nonetheless I was happy to see Brent utilize Sven heavily in the final frame as he absolutely deserved that opportunity.
Yet he was glued to the bench when we actually had the LEAD.
That is what really irks me about Brent Sutter, Why must he change his mindset when we have a lead!!. Nonetheless I was happy to see Brent utilize Sven heavily in the final frame as he absolutely deserved that opportunity.
Actually what I noticed during the game was that Sven took a really long shift. Seemed to be a minute or more. Then Sven sat for a longer period of time than normal. I think it was Brent teaching him a bit about the NHL. Then, when Sven came back on, he took a good quick shift and instead of trying to make the move at the end, he dumped the puck in.
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I was not directly referencing last night in general, but I have often found that to be the case in general over his three game stint. However just last night, after he did score the game tying goal he was sat for an extended period of time while players like Desbiens, Horak and Comeau rotated through his spot.
If someone could find a period by period breakdown of his time on ice, then I am sure you would see that he got very little ice time in the second period after tying the game up. Maybe I am just blowing smoke out of my butt, but I have personally noticed that Baertschi has gotten significantly less ice time when we either have the lead or are tied. I dont like that, a coach should never deviate from his gameplan when the team is having success.
Last edited by HighLifeMan; 03-14-2012 at 05:22 PM.
I was not directly referencing last night in general, but I have often found that to be the case in general over his three game stint. However just last night, after he did score the game tying goal he was sat for an extended period of time while players like Desbiens, Horak and Comeau rotated through his spot.
If someone could find a period by period breakdown of his time on ice, then I am sure you would see that he got very little ice time in the second period after tying the game up. Maybe I am just blowing smoke out of my butt, but I have personally noticed that Baertschi has gotten significantly less ice time when we either have the lead or are tied. I dont like that, a coach should never deviate from his gameplan when the team is having success.
No, I noticed it too. After he scored there was an extended period of time before we saw him again.
Maybe it's just more of a case of Brent becoming familiar with a younger player and feeling more comfortable in playing him in certain situations as he continues to get his feet wet.
I just can't help but be critical due to the amount of blown leads we have encountered over the past month and a half I suppose.
Baertschi is not one the Flames' 50 contracts. Calgary has 54 players signed. Four of them, Baertsci, Reinhart, Ferland and Elson, are signed to ELCs but playing in junior. There is a slide rule that states these contracts do not count until the player turns pro.
Well I completely counted the capgeek contracts wrong and feel like quite the idiot now.
Yet he was glued to the bench when we actually had the LEAD.
That is what really irks me about Brent Sutter, Why must he change his mindset when we have a lead!!. Nonetheless I was happy to see Brent utilize Sven heavily in the final frame as he absolutely deserved that opportunity.
1. Brent doesn't change his mindset when we have the lead. The other team does.
2. The other team changes it's mindset because it's trying to tie game and does so by shortening the bench and rolling 3 lines. This means there is less time that lower end players are on the ice, especially 3rd and 4th line player.
3. Sven isn't ready to play against the other teams best players. He's a great player, but he is still a rookie.
4. As a result of 2 and 3, the opportunity to get Sven out against easier competition is significantly reduced, and the opportunity to get Sven out against easier competition in the offensive zone is almost nil. As such, he plays Sven less not because he changes his mindset, but because the other team is pushing to tie the game and the opportunities to get Sven on the ice in a situation he can succeed in are greatly reduced.
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Tries (and usually fails) to beat d-men with junior stick moves.
Tends to lose the puck in traffic.
I am not saying that he hasn't lost the puck in traffic or that he hasn't failed trying to beat a dman with a fancy move, but geez even guys like Crosby and Malkin run into that problem. I don't think he's doing this any more or any less than other young players or even veterans on the team. I don't think this happens often enough for you to classify that as an attribute of his play, but that's just based on my observations.
That said, I think a larger sample size of games is probably necessary to evaluate his play either way though - next season should be a good one...
1. Brent doesn't change his mindset when we have the lead. The other team does.
2. The other team changes it's mindset because it's trying to tie game and does so by shortening the bench and rolling 3 lines. This means there is less time that lower end players are on the ice, especially 3rd and 4th line player.
3. Sven isn't ready to play against the other teams best players. He's a great player, but he is still a rookie.
4. As a result of 2 and 3, the opportunity to get Sven out against easier competition is significantly reduced, and the opportunity to get Sven out against easier competition in the offensive zone is almost nil. As such, he plays Sven less not because he changes his mindset, but because the other team is pushing to tie the game and the opportunities to get Sven on the ice in a situation he can succeed in are greatly reduced.
1. I disagree completely, and even if he doesnt then he sure as hell is not doing a good enough job adjusting his players to the oppositions changes. We are a completely different team when we have the lead, it's fairly obvious.
2. Sven is not a lower end player, and was called up for a reason. We were on home ice, Brent had the ability to manipulate the matchups to his own liking. Instead he chose to rotate Desbiens and Horak in place of Sven in the 2nd period.
3. Sven is not ready to play against the oppositions best players? then why was he out there in overtime against Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau?
I heard from day one from Devils fans that we should prepare ourselves for a ton of blown leads, and that has certainly been the case this season. By knows means am I intending to derail this thread, but was simply pointing out my confusion over the ever changing utilization of Sven's role within the lineup. Yes, I know it is extremely early and it could have simply been a feeling out process between the coach and the player. These are just some things I openly question to myself, and others. I may be completely out to lunch, but I enjoy hearing different perspectives.
Last edited by HighLifeMan; 03-14-2012 at 09:07 PM.
1. I disagree completely, and even if he doesnt then he sure as hell is not doing a good enough job adjusting his players to the oppositions changes. We are a completely different team when we have the lead, it's fairly obvious.
2. Sven is not a lower end player, and was called up for a reason. We were on home ice, Brent had the ability to manipulate the matchups to his own liking. Instead he chose to rotate Desbiens and Horak in place of Sven in the 2nd period.
3. Sven is not ready to play against the oppositions best players? then why was he out there in overtime against Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau?
I heard from day one from Devils fans that we should prepare ourselves for a ton of blown leads, and that has certainly been the case this season. By knows means am I intending to derail this thread, but was simply pointing out my confusion over the ever changing utilization of Sven's role within the lineup. Yes, I know it is extremely early and it could have simply been a feeling out process between the coach and the player. These are just some things I openly question to myself, and others. I may be completely out to lunch, but I enjoy hearing different perspectives.
I'm only going to comment on 2 and 3.
Horak is one of our best defensive players in the bottom 6. We were hemmed in our zone. Do you really want Sven out in that situation? I'd rather wait until we have some momentum back and the team as a whole is back on it's toes. The only thing putting him out in that situation will do is hurt his confidence as he gets scored on. Desbiens is a player that while not skilled, is probably still better at moving the puck north, dumping, and getting off than Sven at this point in time. I fully expect that to change, but Baertchi's not exactly a proven NHL, or even AHL performer yet. If the team as a whole kept their foot on the gas, Sven would be out there more often IMO.
Sven is not ready to be out there against the other teams best playesr, especially when they start in the defensive zone at 5v5 ES. With a neutral zone or offensive zone start, he can probably be trusted out there, but not in his own zone. That's why he was out there 4v4 and not 5v5. 4v4 it's a lot easier to move the puck down the ice as there is a lot more room to manoeuvre which suits his strengths really well, and minimizes his weaknesses. It's also harder to maintain pressure 4v4 so it's significantly less likely either team will be stuck in their own zone for extended periods of time. Instead, more goals are scored on the rush and again, Baertchi's speed and skill makes him ideally suited to this resulting in the coaches feeling he deserved 4 on 4 time, but didn't trust him to be good enough without the puck to be playing when the team is on it's heels. Of course, having one point already in the bag doesn't hurt either.
I was just as impressed with the timing of his goals as with the goals themselves. It's not like he got them when the Flames were up by 3 or 4 and there was less pressure. I think it's also a good sign that he doesn't lose his nerves when the pressure's on. The rookie mistakes he makes can be worked out over time, and as of now they aren't really hurting the team. I'd like to see him play with Backlund again and I think he could help bring out some of his creativity.
I know it might be rushing him and overly optimistic, but I really wish he could stay. The buzz he's giving the team now alone is worth it.
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Horak is one of our best defensive players in the bottom 6. We were hemmed in our zone. Do you really want Sven out in that situation? I'd rather wait until we have some momentum back and the team as a whole is back on it's toes. The only thing putting him out in that situation will do is hurt his confidence as he gets scored on. Desbiens is a player that while not skilled, is probably still better at moving the puck north, dumping, and getting off than Sven at this point in time. I fully expect that to change, but Baertchi's not exactly a proven NHL, or even AHL performer yet. If the team as a whole kept their foot on the gas, Sven would be out there more often IMO.
Sven is not ready to be out there against the other teams best playesr, especially when they start in the defensive zone at 5v5 ES. With a neutral zone or offensive zone start, he can probably be trusted out there, but not in his own zone. That's why he was out there 4v4 and not 5v5. 4v4 it's a lot easier to move the puck down the ice as there is a lot more room to manoeuvre which suits his strengths really well, and minimizes his weaknesses. It's also harder to maintain pressure 4v4 so it's significantly less likely either team will be stuck in their own zone for extended periods of time. Instead, more goals are scored on the rush and again, Baertchi's speed and skill makes him ideally suited to this resulting in the coaches feeling he deserved 4 on 4 time, but didn't trust him to be good enough without the puck to be playing when the team is on it's heels. Of course, having one point already in the bad doesn't hurt either.
I suppose we just have varying views on where we believe Sven stands at this point in time. My confusion specifically stems from the fact that Sutter did not trust Baertschi in the 2nd period (after scoring a goal) and yet had him out there in every key situation in the final period and into overtime.
Like I said, I could just be digging to far into something that really is not that big of an issue. (Which I tend to do from time to time)
Does anyone know regarding the 10 game maximum rookie rule.....
Say if Sven plays 9 games in the NHL, gets sent back to the Winterhawks, and his WHL team exits early...Flames call him back for the playoffs, would the playoffs count as game 10, 11, 12 and 13, etc? Or would that be under a different rule?
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