Campaign starts to adopt dog that killed Alberta baby

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

To be clear, there was no chance the dog would have remained with the family. That option isn't part of the conversation.

They were irresponsible idiots. Factually, that's true.

Still, as I said above, it would be tough to be in their shoes. They simply couldn't live knowing the dog would be somewhere else, enjoying life. Dogs very much live in the moment.

That would be my read.

Cowperson

This, bugs me. You were not in the home. You did not witness it. You are not privy to the official investigative documents. You do not know if the dog didn't escape from it's cage. You do not know so many variables to be making a blanket statement like that. Nobody does.

For we know this could have been a terrible misunderstanding. Perhaps the dog was supposed to be outside, and some had let it in inadvertently, and whoever set the baby down did not know.

I respect your posts, but I think your criticism is harsh, and unwarranted.

[jhunt223]

Originally Posted by pylon

To be honest, I bet there are people on here that ignorant, that is what they are thinking. How anyone can hold the parents more responsible than the animal, and have more sympathy for the dog that killed their kid, than the parents, shows a lack of maturity and real world sense.

Lets redo this scenario:

A full grown ######ed adult man who has no concept of right or wrong, picks your kid up out of a stroller, in a grocery store, and starts gnawing on the back of your baby's neck, and subsequently kills it. Are you going to feel sorry for him? Are you going to forgive him? Are you gonna go to the mental hospital and cuddle with him?

God some of you people must have Aspergers syndrome or something.

When logic and reason fail to support your argument you resort to calling people dog ****ers, saying they have Aspergers syndrome and making that ridiculous ######-dog comparison? I guess you showed us.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Since you want to compare it to a different scenario, let's try one that more closely matches what happened.

Say a family has two children, aged 1 and 3. The parents leave them unattended for a few minutes. The three year old, who doesn't fully understand the consequences of his actions, pushes his little brother into the bathtub. The 1 year old drowns. Do you think the three year old should be put down?

No. Because we all know human beings are more important than dogs, and different rules apply.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Since you want to compare it to a different scenario, let's try one that more closely matches what happened.

Say a family has two children, aged 1 and 3. The parents leave them unattended for a few minutes. The three year old, who doesn't fully understand the consequences of his actions, pushes his little brother into the bathtub. The 1 year old drowns. Do you think the three year old should be put down?

Sorry, you won't trap me with that.

Like it or not, humans and animals suffer different consequences when punished. Human life tends to be regarded just a tad more valuable.

Secondly, we can not know for sure if the dogs intent was malicious or not, it cannot speak for itself. A 3 year old child can.

I am being made out like I am some sort of dog killer/hater here. You just might wanna click on a few threads on the front page, that involve dogs to see how far from the truth that is.

The bottom line is this. There is an unspoken contract between a dog, and its master. And yes, as a human, you ARE its master, and you DO decide the animals fate. Attacking, injuring, maiming, or KILLING another human, in any way, intentional or not is in violation of that unspoken contract. This dog did not bump the kid off the deck chasing a ball of course that scenario is different. It took the child in it's mouth, and BIT IT TO DEATH. Probably breaking the child's neck, and probably traumatically wounding it. Instinctual or not, that is in violation, of that contract.

[Hilch]

Originally Posted by pylon

Secondly, we can not know for sure if the dogs intent was malicious or not, it cannot speak for itself. A 3 year old child can.

So because someone can speak for itself it's life will be spared. Well good thing as a human species we always tell the absolute truth.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Hilch

So because someone can speak for itself it's life will be spared. Well good them as a human species we always tell the absolute truth.

No, because we cannot know for sure if the dog meant to do it or not, there a big difference.

However, your biggest flaw is assuming a dogs life and a humans life, somehow have an equal value. The law says, they do not. As is evidenced with our now legally euthanized Husky.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by pylon

This, bugs me. You were not in the home. You did not witness it. You are not privy to the official investigative documents. You do not know if the dog didn't escape from it's cage. You do not know so many variables to be making a blanket statement like that. Nobody does.

For we know this could have been a terrible misunderstanding. Perhaps the dog was supposed to be outside, and some had let it in inadvertently, and whoever set the baby down did not know.

I respect your posts, but I think your criticism is harsh, and unwarranted.

From a news story a week ago, this is what the parents had told a neighbour:

They had locked the dog in its kennel in the basement and put their sleeping baby in his crib, Donald said. But somehow the dog escaped and went to investigate when the baby woke up crying. It was not a vicious attack, she said, and the same bite wouldn't have killed an older child.
The parents believe the dog may have been trying to care for the child, she said.

"When dogs grab their young, they grab them there to pull them in," said Donald, who came to know the Fradettes through the dog-sledding community in southern Alberta.

She said the nine-year-old female dog, a Siberian husky, had previously delivered four litters of its own puppies.

"It wanted to nurture, care for (the baby)," Donald said. "It felt like it was part of the family. That's what it seemed like to them."

And

The parents said they also attended seminars by the Calgary Humane Society, including one on how to bring a new baby into a home with pets.

Read it on Global News: Global Calgary | Family friend says dog that killed baby may have been trying to care for child

If true, not a stupid mistake. My apologies. And they had prepared to integrate the baby and the dog ahead of time.

On the other hand, the description of the dog is not exactly a helpful recommendation on their decision to euthanize when offers were there to save its life in another location.

Cowperson

[Joborule]

Ugh, instead of killing it why couldn't they just surrender it?

Again, killing the dog is not going to bring the baby back. More death is not the answer.

[Lithium]

Originally Posted by pylon

To be honest, I bet there are people on here that ignorant, that is what they are thinking. How anyone can hold the parents more responsible than the animal, and have more sympathy for the dog that killed their kid, than the parents, shows a lack of maturity and real world sense.

Lets redo this scenario:

A full grown ######ed adult man who has no concept of right or wrong, picks your kid up out of a stroller, in a grocery store, and starts gnawing on the back of your baby's neck, and subsequently kills it. Are you going to feel sorry for him? Are you going to forgive him? Are you gonna go to the mental hospital and cuddle with him?

God some of you people must have Aspergers syndrome or something.

Full grown ######ed adult men don't wander grocery stores by themselves, they require supervision, like say... a 2 day year baby would.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Lithium

Full grown ######ed adult men don't wander grocery stores by themselves, they require supervision, like say... a 2 day year baby would.

I don't need supervision when I go to Safeway, so your argument is invalid.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by pylon

I don't need supervision when I go to Safeway, so your argument is invalid.

Ya but you're not full grown. Being a midget makes you less dangerous.

[Lithium]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Ya but you're not full grown. Being a midget makes you less dangerous.

Nope, wrong, argument invalid.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Lithium

Nope, wrong, argument invalid.

A small transvestite midget with a hunch back?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Lithium

Nope, wrong, argument invalid.

I think you might be right.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by pylon

The bottom line is this. There is an unspoken contract between a dog, and its master. And yes, as a human, you ARE its master, and you DO decide the animals fate. Attacking, injuring, maiming, or KILLING another human, in any way, intentional or not is in violation of that unspoken contract. This dog did not bump the kid off the deck chasing a ball of course that scenario is different. It took the child in it's mouth, and BIT IT TO DEATH. Probably breaking the child's neck, and probably traumatically wounding it. Instinctual or not, that is in violation, of that contract.

In their eyes, you are no different than another member of their pack. You're the alpha-dog to them, not the master. There's a huge difference. They typically have a strong sense of social hierarchy and desire to belong, and they have a sense of reward and punishment as a means of pack membership and standing.
This is the closest that they can come to having a contract, but even then it only applies, in the dog's understanding, to situations that it's familiar with. They don't typically have an understanding of the rewards and punishments associated with unfamiliar situations, or a good set of tools for making these judgements. Everything it understands about reward and punishment, it gets from us. The dog's owner has a better understanding of the consequences of the dog's actions than the dog ever will.
The most severe punishment they could possibly imagine is exclusion from the pack. The idea that they could have any sense of an agreement that involves their own death as punishment is ridiculous.

[Slava]

I didn't read this whole thread, and basically stopped when I got to the "shoot the parents" posts. I guess I just wanted to post to express my condolences to the family. It's so tragic.

Probably a few people on here know that the father is a CPer (although maybe not really active). I know him, although not really well. I feel so bad for them, and frankly I hope he never opens this thread to get to those posts I mention above.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Slava

I didn't read this whole thread, and basically stopped when I got to the "shoot the parents" posts. I guess I just wanted to post to express my condolences to the family. It's so tragic.

Probably a few people on here know that the father is a CPer (although maybe not really active). I know him, although not really well. I feel so bad for them, and frankly I hope he never opens this thread to get to those posts I mention above.

Ya, I stopped there too. I can see shoot the dog, but come on the parents have paid dearly for a mistake that they really probably could never see coming.

I was just at a friends house a few days back with their new born, and guess what, the dog was there in he room next to the baby. I am sure many people trust their pets more than they should, but that is human nature.

Anyways, I don't know the details. However, this is a case of put down the dog, learn a lesson and move on to me. Really after this happened there was no salvaging the situation. The poor parents shouldn't have to worry that dog will accidentally do anything like that again.

Another thing to add, people need to stop over humanizing these animals. To me they occupy a lower rung in the social order than us. As lower beings, we owe it to them to treat them as humanly as possible. However, they will never receive the same type of due process when an event like this occurs. They are animals, not people. You can never be fully sure why they behave like they do, only make an educated guess. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I think people have gone too far with the whole dogs are people too. Baking cakes for dogs, spas, and even I have friends who celebrate Mothers Day because hey are "Dog Mommies". This behavior has lead us to think these animals are human, when in fact they are not.

It is what it is, dogs are awesome creatures, but they are just that. Unfortunately, they have to pay the price for our mistakes sometimes, but I won't lose any sleep over it.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Ya, I stopped there too. I can see shoot the dog, but come on the parents have paid dearly for a mistake that they really probably could never see coming.

I was just at a friends house a few days back with their new born, and guess what, the dog was there in he room next to the baby. I am sure many people trust their pets more than they should, but that is human nature.

Anyways, I don't know the details. However, this is a case of put down the dog, learn a lesson and move on to me. Really after this happened there was no salvaging the situation. The poor parents shouldn't have to worry that dog will accidentally do anything like that again.

Another thing to add, people need to stop over humanizing these animals. To me they occupy a lower rung in the social order than us. As lower beings, we owe it to them to treat them as humanly as possible. However, they will never receive the same type of due process when an event like this occurs. They are animals, not people. You can never be fully sure why they behave like they do, only make an educated guess. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I think people have gone too far with the whole dogs are people too. Baking cakes for dogs, spas, and even I have friends who celebrate Mothers Day because hey are "Dog Mommies". This behavior has lead us to think these animals are human, when in fact they are not.

It is what it is, dogs are awesome creatures, but they are just that. Unfortunately, they have to pay the price for our mistakes sometimes, but I won't lose any sleep over it.

Again, why does the dog HAVE to be killed?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

From a news story a week ago, this is what the parents had told a neighbour:

They had locked the dog in its kennel in the basement and put their sleeping baby in his crib, Donald said. But somehow the dog escaped and went to investigate when the baby woke up crying. It was not a vicious attack, she said, and the same bite wouldn't have killed an older child.
The parents believe the dog may have been trying to care for the child, she said.

"When dogs grab their young, they grab them there to pull them in," said Donald, who came to know the Fradettes through the dog-sledding community in southern Alberta.

She said the nine-year-old female dog, a Siberian husky, had previously delivered four litters of its own puppies.

"It wanted to nurture, care for (the baby)," Donald said. "It felt like it was part of the family. That's what it seemed like to them."

And

The parents said they also attended seminars by the Calgary Humane Society, including one on how to bring a new baby into a home with pets.

Read it on Global News: Global Calgary | Family friend says dog that killed baby may have been trying to care for child

If true, not a stupid mistake. My apologies. And they had prepared to integrate the baby and the dog ahead of time.

On the other hand, the description of the dog is not exactly a helpful recommendation on their decision to euthanize when offers were there to save its life in another location.

Cowperson

Thanks slava, Hence why I want to re-quote this.

According to everything written in this post, these people did nothing wrong, and took every precaution. The dog escaped from it's cage, and got at the child. Also they took precautions before the child was brought home that 99.5% of the population wouldn't. A lot of people owe these folks an apology for calling them horrible parents, irresponsible, etc.

And judigng on the fact nobody actually witnessed what the dog did, and that nobody actually saw the dog take the child, the right decision was made.

Again cowperson brings rationality to the situtation.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Ya, I stopped there too. I can see shoot the dog, but come on the parents have paid dearly for a mistake that they really probably could never see coming.

I was just at a friends house a few days back with their new born, and guess what, the dog was there in he room next to the baby. I am sure many people trust their pets more than they should, but that is human nature.

Anyways, I don't know the details. However, this is a case of put down the dog, learn a lesson and move on to me. Really after this happened there was no salvaging the situation. The poor parents shouldn't have to worry that dog will accidentally do anything like that again.

Another thing to add, people need to stop over humanizing these animals. To me they occupy a lower rung in the social order than us. As lower beings, we owe it to them to treat them as humanly as possible. However, they will never receive the same type of due process when an event like this occurs. They are animals, not people. You can never be fully sure why they behave like they do, only make an educated guess. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I think people have gone too far with the whole dogs are people too. Baking cakes for dogs, spas, and even I have friends who celebrate Mothers Day because hey are "Dog Mommies". This behavior has lead us to think these animals are human, when in fact they are not.

It is what it is, dogs are awesome creatures, but they are just that. Unfortunately, they have to pay the price for our mistakes sometimes, but I won't lose any sleep over it.

I don't get, and I guess a lot of others don't get either, why it has to be "Put down the dog, learn a lesson, and move on" rather than "Learn a lesson, and move on."

Do they get some sick vindication knowing that they got vengeance for their child?
Do they feel like they're teaching other dogs a lesson?
Do they feel like they're teaching other humans a lesson?

I guess I just don't get it. It's a freak accident, and I don't get why the dog had to die over a mistake.