Will Israel launch unilateral air strikes to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by puckluck

No, actually 1982. My parents weren't even born in 1948.

Sorry I misunderstood the post.

I didn't know that you were talking about your personal incidence.

My bad

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

So Puckluck, are your parents describing torture during the civil war or when Israel basically liberated Lebanon from the Syrians and PLO?

Ha? Liberated us from the Syrians? We still aren't liberated from the Syrians to this very day.

Don't know enough about the PLO to comment on that, but I don't think torture and abuse is justified under any circumstances.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by T@T

Hopefully in the not too distant future people will look back and laugh at the pasts sheer stupidity to hate and kill over something called religion.

Wars over greed seem so much "smarter" for some reason.

I think you are incredibly ignorant (not in the rude way) if you feel this is due to religion. It's about Israel's view of survival, Iran's view of revenge/ego, the US view of their best interest/political life, etc. There is no religious reason for Christians to help Jews, or religious reason for having nuclear weapons. I know it's trendy and simple to point to religion, but it's not that simple.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by T@T

I was talking about Iran, their hatred of Israel is mostly religion based.

Their hatred is revenge against a people. Nowhere does it say to kill Jews in the Koran. They only choose to spin it that way as in "look what the jews do to our brothers!"

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Oh I see - you would like to introduce bullet by-products as equivocal to detonation of nuclear bombs?

Yes absolutely I would. And I am not the only one who makes this claim. The men behind the Manhattan project have claimed as much. Strawman my arse. Your deflection is text book strawman.



"1943 MANHATTAN PROJECT BLUEPRINT FOR DEPLETED URANIUM

In a declassified memo to General Leslie R. Groves, dated October 30, 1943, three of the top physicists in the Manhattan Project, Dr James B Conant, A H Compton, and H C Urey, made their recommendation, as members of the Subcommittee of the S-1 Executive Committee, on the ‘Use of Radioactive Materials as a Military Weapon’:

"As a gas warfare instrument the material would be ground into particles of microscopic size to form dust and smoke and distributed by a ground-fired projectile, land vehicles, or aerial bombs. In this form it would be inhaled by personnel. The amount necessary to cause death to a person inhaling the material is extremely small … There are no known methods of treatment for such a casualty … it will permeate a standard gas mask filter in quantities large enough to be extremely damaging."

As a Terrain Contaminant:

"To be used in this manner, the radioactive materials would be spread on the ground either from the air or from the ground if in enemy controlled territory. In order to deny terrain to either side except at the expense of exposing personnel to harmful radiations … Areas so contaminated by radioactive material would be dangerous until the slow natural decay of the material took place … for average terrain no decontaminating methods are known. No effective protective clothing for personnel seems possible of development. … Reservoirs or wells would be contaminated or food poisoned with an effect similar to that resulting from inhalation of dust or smoke."

Internal Exposure:

"… Particles smaller than 1µ [micron] are more likely to be deposited in the alveoli where they will either remain indefinitely or be absorbed into the lymphatics or blood. … could get into the gastro-intestinal tract from polluted water, or food, or air. … may be absorbed from the lungs or G-I tract into the blood and so distributed throughout the body."

Both the fission products and depleted uranium waste from the Atomic Bomb Project were to be utilised under this plan. The pyrophoric nature of depleted uranium, which causes it to begin to burn at very low temperatures from friction in the gun barrel, made it an ideal radioactive gas weapon then and now. Also it was more available because the amount of depleted uranium produced was much greater than the amount of fission products produced in 1943.

The fact is that the United States and its military partners have staged four nuclear wars, "slipping nukes under the wire" by using dirty bombs and dirty weapons in countries the US needs to control. Depleted uranium aerosols will permanently contaminate vast regions and slowly destroy the genetic future of populations living in those regions, where there are resources which the US must control, in order to establish and maintain American primacy.

Described as the Trojan Horse of nuclear war, depleted uranium is the weapon that keeps killing. The half-life of Uranium-238 is 4.5 billion years, the age of the earth. And, as Uranium-238 decays into daughter radioactive products, in four steps before turning into lead, it continues to release more radiation at each step. There is no way to turn it off, and there is no way to clean it up. It meets the US Government’s own definition of Weapons of Mass Destruction.

After forming microscopic and submicroscopic insoluble Uranium oxide particles on the battlefield, they remain suspended in air and travel around the earth as a radioactive component of atmospheric dust, contaminating the environment, indiscriminately killing, maiming and causing disease in all living things where rain, snow and moisture remove it from the atmosphere. Global radioactive contamination from atmospheric testing was the equivalent of 40,000 Hiroshima bombs, and still contaminates the atmosphere and lower orbital space today. The amount of low level radioactive pollution from depleted uranium released since 1991, is many times more (deposited internally in the body), than was released from atmospheric testing fallout."

from: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...ext=va&aid=709

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Ha? Liberated us from the Syrians? We still aren't liberated from the Syrians to this very day.

Don't know enough about the PLO to comment on that, but I don't think torture and abuse is justified under any circumstances.

There was a lot of pressure internationally to get out of Lebanon, so Israel moved back and just kept the buffer zone. Back to my original point, Lebanon may have been better off had Israel completed their mission. I think we both agree Israeli action was justified and looking back Lebanon had an opportunity to align with Israel and really become independent. Unfortunately, Lebanon sat back and later did not make peace with Israel.

I am sorry your parents were caught up in this, but as you can see war is hell regardless of what side you are on. As you have pointed out, Israel was basically liberating Lebanon when your family was impacted.

I am still not sure about the torture part, unless we are saying that the abuse was tantamount to torture. It certainly was not Israeli policy to abuse or torture civilians, but I don't doubt in a conflict that can occur. I am fairly certain that incidents of abuse and torture are far greater threats from some other neighbors in the region.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by freedogger

Yes absolutely I would. And I am not the only one who makes this claim. The men behind the Manhattan project have claimed as much. Strawman my arse. Your deflection is text book strawman.



"1943 MANHATTAN PROJECT BLUEPRINT FOR DEPLETED URANIUM

In a declassified memo to General Leslie R. Groves, dated October 30, 1943, three of the top physicists in the Manhattan Project, Dr James B Conant, A H Compton, and H C Urey, made their recommendation, as members of the Subcommittee of the S-1 Executive Committee, on the ‘Use of Radioactive Materials as a Military Weapon’:

"As a gas warfare instrument the material would be ground into particles of microscopic size to form dust and smoke and distributed by a ground-fired projectile, land vehicles, or aerial bombs. In this form it would be inhaled by personnel. The amount necessary to cause death to a person inhaling the material is extremely small … There are no known methods of treatment for such a casualty … it will permeate a standard gas mask filter in quantities large enough to be extremely damaging."

As a Terrain Contaminant:

"To be used in this manner, the radioactive materials would be spread on the ground either from the air or from the ground if in enemy controlled territory. In order to deny terrain to either side except at the expense of exposing personnel to harmful radiations … Areas so contaminated by radioactive material would be dangerous until the slow natural decay of the material took place … for average terrain no decontaminating methods are known. No effective protective clothing for personnel seems possible of development. … Reservoirs or wells would be contaminated or food poisoned with an effect similar to that resulting from inhalation of dust or smoke."

Internal Exposure:

"… Particles smaller than 1µ [micron] are more likely to be deposited in the alveoli where they will either remain indefinitely or be absorbed into the lymphatics or blood. … could get into the gastro-intestinal tract from polluted water, or food, or air. … may be absorbed from the lungs or G-I tract into the blood and so distributed throughout the body."

Both the fission products and depleted uranium waste from the Atomic Bomb Project were to be utilised under this plan. The pyrophoric nature of depleted uranium, which causes it to begin to burn at very low temperatures from friction in the gun barrel, made it an ideal radioactive gas weapon then and now. Also it was more available because the amount of depleted uranium produced was much greater than the amount of fission products produced in 1943.

The fact is that the United States and its military partners have staged four nuclear wars, "slipping nukes under the wire" by using dirty bombs and dirty weapons in countries the US needs to control. Depleted uranium aerosols will permanently contaminate vast regions and slowly destroy the genetic future of populations living in those regions, where there are resources which the US must control, in order to establish and maintain American primacy.

Described as the Trojan Horse of nuclear war, depleted uranium is the weapon that keeps killing. The half-life of Uranium-238 is 4.5 billion years, the age of the earth. And, as Uranium-238 decays into daughter radioactive products, in four steps before turning into lead, it continues to release more radiation at each step. There is no way to turn it off, and there is no way to clean it up. It meets the US Government’s own definition of Weapons of Mass Destruction.

After forming microscopic and submicroscopic insoluble Uranium oxide particles on the battlefield, they remain suspended in air and travel around the earth as a radioactive component of atmospheric dust, contaminating the environment, indiscriminately killing, maiming and causing disease in all living things where rain, snow and moisture remove it from the atmosphere. Global radioactive contamination from atmospheric testing was the equivalent of 40,000 Hiroshima bombs, and still contaminates the atmosphere and lower orbital space today. The amount of low level radioactive pollution from depleted uranium released since 1991, is many times more (deposited internally in the body), than was released from atmospheric testing fallout."

from: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...ext=va&aid=709

Ahh, you're one of those people. I thought the depleted uranium conspiracy theories were old hat by now?

Do you realize who wrote that article? Besides the fact that I would love to see some statistical evidence about microscopic uranium oxide from the "battlefield" indiscriminately killing people around the world, it's written by a complete conspiratorial loon that describes herself as an "independent scientist" because no one else wants to be associated with her. She claims to have been a staff scientist at nuclear weapon labs, because she knows the easily mislead will take it at face value and believe she has some type of nuclear credentials. In actuality, she worked at these locations during her graduate studies in geology, and was never even considered a lab employee during her stay at those places.

She (Leuren Moret) believes diabetes (diabetus) is caused by the fallout from nuclear testing in the 50s and 60s. She believes the Queen of England owns most of the uranium mines in the world (I kid you not), and that the Rockefellers are the second largest owners of uranium mines. She believes global warming is a hoax (you can imagine the reasons why). She's a 9/11 truther, believes the Japan earthquake was a case of "tectonic nuclear warfare," carried out using HAARP by the CIA, British Petroleum, and a number of other groups on behalf of London banks, and believes a US space shuttle launch was covertly intended to place chemtrails in space needed for HAARP.

She is a pseudoscientist masquerading as a whistleblowing avenger of justice. When quoting a source, merely quoting it isn't what's important; it's the reliability of the information contained within that source. If you want to be taken seriously, I would advise you to not associate yourself with anything written by her.

Here is a taste of her crazy, if anyone feels like listening to it:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...92019596709070

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Their hatred is revenge against a people. Nowhere does it say to kill Jews in the Koran. They only choose to spin it that way as in "look what the jews do to our brothers!"

Would this be happening if Israel was Islamic?

The problem with the Quran is interpretation, religious fanatics teach it's cruel side.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder Jews.
'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.
"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder non-Muslims
Qur'an 2:191 - And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people they did not trust.
Qur'an 4:091: - You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people they thought to be idolaters.
Qur'an 9:005: - So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people if they thought it was a just cause.
Qur'an 17:033: - And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.

Murder is the major unspoken pillar of Islam. This explains why there are Muslims who are making bombs and detonating them as you read this!

[nik-]

There's a lot of ####ed up #### in the Bible if taken literally in a modern context too.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by T@T

Murder is the major unspoken pillar of Islam. This explains why there are Muslims who are making bombs and detonating them as you read this!

Had to quote this nugget. Succinctly put.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by T@T

Would this be happening if Israel was Islamic?

The problem with the Quran is interpretation, religious fanatics teach it's cruel side.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder Jews.
'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.
"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder non-Muslims
Qur'an 2:191 - And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people they did not trust.
Qur'an 4:091: - You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people they thought to be idolaters.
Qur'an 9:005: - So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people if they thought it was a just cause.
Qur'an 17:033: - And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.

Murder is the major unspoken pillar of Islam. This explains why there are Muslims who are making bombs and detonating them as you read this!

While this was educational for me indeed (perhaps I am more ignorant of the religion itself than I thought), the reasons given to the international community for their desire to wipe Israel off the map are purely political. Land, resources and revenge kill more than religion. I am not defending religion to defend religion, but it's cause of war is overstated IMO. If the Middle East was devoid of oil and therefore it's strategic importance, their would be far fewer western bullets flying. America did not go there because of religion, Israel did not get created BECAUSE of religion (though I concede it was important in it's founding).

At the end of the day, war is fought for personal gain, and no one prays to that. (Modern History only, I understand historically religions role)

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by T@T

Would this be happening if Israel was Islamic?

The problem with the Quran is interpretation, religious fanatics teach it's cruel side.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder Jews.
'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.
"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder non-Muslims
Qur'an 2:191 - And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people they did not trust.
Qur'an 4:091: - You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people they thought to be idolaters.
Qur'an 9:005: - So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Mohammad taught Muslims to murder people if they thought it was a just cause.
Qur'an 17:033: - And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.

Murder is the major unspoken pillar of Islam. This explains why there are Muslims who are making bombs and detonating them as you read this!

1) The first you quote is a hadith. It is not from the Qur'an, and many hadiths are debated in their authenticity and interpretation.

2) The second quote is taken completely out of context. This is the entire excerpt before and after, taken from my Qur'an English translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali:

- 2:190: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah does no love transgressors.
- 2:191: And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out wherever they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they fight you first there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward for those who supress faith.
- 2:192:But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

To me, this sounds pretty close to what we would say today, just replace faith with some other ideology, such as democracy. Your quote is misleading, and it is not only concerning non-believers.

3) Again, this quote is out of context, and is not referring to people Muslims don't trust, but transgressors during a fight that sue for peace, but backstab. The passage before is long, and puts it in context, and I'll quote it if you feel the need.

4) This one is about idolaters (Pagans), and does preach violence against them, but is no different from what Christians preached and committed (on a far larger scale) against perceived pagans and idolaters. And for the record, the idolaters spoken of here do not include Christians or Jews.

5) This passage approves of killing in a "just cause." How is this any different than what is done in the United States in the case of capital punishment, or the idea of Israel attacking Iran pre-emptively? I am sure they believe it is a "just cause." It actually sounds like a pretty modern statement to me.

- 17:33 Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).

Your last statement is just absurd and sensationalist. Feels like a CNN.com user comment.

There are some verses in the Qu'ran that would be far more effective at defending your position, but the ones you gave are not them. If you've ever actually read the Bible and the Qur'an, the Muslim holy book is often far more progressive.

As for Muhammad himself, he had a great respect for Jews as the children of Jacob, and when he went to live amongst them in Medina actually adopted through "revelation" many of their older customs and incorporated them into Islam (pray toward Jerusalem, dietary laws, pray three times a day instead of the prior two, the Hagar and Ismael myth, etc.) There was a great falling out between many of them and himself, but the modern, widespread dislike of Jews many Muslims have is something that evolved; it was not indoctrinated from the start.

[CaptainCrunch]

Awesome awesome quote HP, it goes back to how fanatics use interpretation and recreation of any of the scriptures whether the bible, or Quran against itself.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by freedogger

Yes absolutely I would. And I am not the only one who makes this claim. The men behind the Manhattan project have claimed as much. Strawman my arse. Your deflection is text book strawman.



"1943 MANHATTAN PROJECT BLUEPRINT FOR DEPLETED URANIUM

blah blah aliens blah tin-foil hat blah jfk blah blah

Here's some more "required" reading for you:

Johanna C. Badcock, Milan Dragović. Schizotypal personality in mature adults. Personality and Individual Differences, Vol 40(1) 2006, 701-708

Raine, Adrian;Reynolds, Chandra;Lencz, Todd;Scerbo, Angela; et al. Cognitive-perceptual, interpersonal, and disorganized features of schizotypal personality. Schizophrenia Bulletin, Vol 20(1), 1994, 191-201.

Raine, Adrian. Schizotypal and borderline features in psychopathic criminals. Personality and Individual Differences, Vol 13(1) 1992, 717-721

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Gunkle

Iran has been funding, planning, and executing missions against the US and their allies (Canadians) in Iraq and Afghanistan for years. Iran has declared war against us, but we haven't done a thing to stop these incursions. Now, the craziest man to control a state (Ahmadinejad) wants to usher in the 'thirteenth Imam' (see: end of the world).

So...let me get this straight. Iran has been fighting a proxy war against the West for years. Now, this lunatic wants weaponized uranium to destroy the world, and we're expected to roll over for him?
Hell no! Bomb the piss out of him - and if Israel does it (see: Osriak reactor - Iraq) - a big thank you to those guys.

You're being a little one-sided here.

I fully acknowledge that Iran isn't the neighborhood nice guy, but this America = good guy, Iran = bad guy paradigm is highly flawed.

The West (Israel/America) has been supporting terror proxies of their own for years now (PJAK, MEK, Jundullah) inside Iran. Western incursions into Iran have been plenty, including flying drones over Iranian air space. That is a direct act of war imo.

Also, look up Operation Ajax. That was an American/British backed Iranian coup in 1953 that removed a democratically elected president (Mosaddegh) and installed an authoritarian government that gave Western oil giants favorable conditions to exploit their lucrative oil reserves. Mosaddegh made moves to nationalize the oil industry in Iran .....and the corporate giants did not like that.

Btw you know that the U.S. and NATO use depleted uranium munitions right?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

This is one of the most insane things I've ever read. Unless you think that Iran is going to come right out and publicly admit that they not only fund international terrorism, but actively control it as well. And your asking Israel to disarm first as a show of what? Good faith, what the frack have those groups and the rest of the Middle East done to earn that kind of trust. For Hammas and Hezbollah the term ceasefire is a alternative term to re-arm.


You will never have peace in the Middle East because neither side has any reason whatsoever to build a basis of peace because there is actually no basis for trust.

This is what it all boils down to. Someone has to take the first step. I don't believe Israel wants peace any more than Hamas does.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Iran is being economically/militarily attacked for the possibility of making a nuclear weapon, while Israel has hundreds of them in possession and have not faced much international pressure, sanctions etc.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

This is what it all boils down to. Someone has to take the first step. I don't believe Israel wants peace any more than Hamas does.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Iran is being economically/militarily attacked for the possibility of making a nuclear weapon, while Israel has hundreds of them in possession and have not faced much international pressure, sanctions etc.

I completely disagree. It all boils down to security for their borders.

They have been attacked in every way right from the start of their national history.

While I agree that things like Settlement construction have been outright stupid, everything else that we complain around is based on the fact that they are a tiny country with next to no natural security or defensive line getting attacked in multiple formats throughout their history.

Out of all of the nation states and terrorist organizations involved which ones have tried to trade land for peace? Who has broken more ceasefire agreements?


Israel isn't a exporter of terrorism to the same extent as Iran. The reason for the international sanctions is because Iran is in no way trustworthy with weapons grade nuclear material.

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Ahh, you're one of those people. I thought the depleted uranium conspiracy theories were old hat by now?

I didn't quote *her* I quoted the memo her site hosted from the original scientists on the Manhattan project. I could google several other sources for that memo if you care. The previous post of mine listed several scientific papers on it.

And you claim depleted uranium is a conspiracy? Where is the conspiracy? Nato uses depleted uranium in several types of armaments. They certainly don't deny it. Simple math is all that is needed to figure out how much has been dispersed. Are you saying I am a conspiracy loon because I don't think it is harmless.

Your only angle seems to be name calling.

[CaptainCrunch]

A interesting paper on the myths and truths about DU weapons

Its a good primer for both sides

http://www.wise-uranium.org/pdf/dumyths.pdf

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

...While I agree that things like Settlement construction have been outright stupid...

I just trimmed your post for this point (yes, taken out of context from the rest of your post). I am not sure what I would do if I was in Israel's shoes. This was captured land taken from hostile neighbors that in many cases do not want the land back. Clearly the Palestinians want this land and most critics of Israel see settlements simply as land taken from Palestinians, which in many ways is not true. These were zones Israel thought were strategic for their opponents military; with few people to negotiate with, Israel simply build up in those areas.

Within Israel and outside, there is debate about the legality of the settlements. I lean towards the Israeli point of view, which is that they were seized in self defense and is theirs until someone negotiates otherwise. Unfortunately, the more common world view is that the land belonged to Palestinians and Israel marched in and took it. Often forgotten is the fact that Jordan and a few other countries were at war with Israel when the land was seized. I don't doubt that if there was no

As Israel has already demonstrated, they will give the land back if there is peace. If there is no negotiation, Israel believes they have a sovereign right for the land and what to do on it. How long can Israel sit back while the regimes around them spin their wheels? I really believe that if there was no second Intifada, many of the settlements, structures etc. would have been handed over to the Palestinian Authority, or whoever would have governed that side and Israel could have been a quasi two state nation with minimal checkpoints. If it is Iran that is meddling in Palestinian affairs (via Hezbollah, Hamas, etc) this is where fingers should be pointed. As we have seen earlier in this thread, regardless of hundreds of thousands killed, Israel has the fingers pointed at them even if they had nothing to do with it (ie Lebanese civil war).

Just like the Lebanese, making peace with Israel would have been the best answer for the Palestinians, yet that option was not picked.