So you are ok with Canada losing its culture all together then so we can be tolerable to others because they are a minority?
Hyperbole.. Canada can't, by definition, lose its culture. Culture can change, and will change regardless.
And what songs are sung and what script is used in a secular school isn't going to remove Christmas from Canadian culture.
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Originally Posted by fundmark19
As far as I can remember Christmas/Holidays have been celebrated in schools throughout Canada. Catholic as well as Public. Santa always came and delivered present to Catholic and Agnostic Families as well as some Jewish families that I knew. I am not as old as some members on this board but others can chime in if they had different experiences.
Just because it did happen in the past doesn't mean it should happen now.
Personally I don't really have a problem with it either, but that's my culture, I can't really speak for those who have to sit and watch and listen to their kid do things in the school play that have meaning for everyone else but not for them.
Personally my solution would be to have something represented from every culture represented by the kids participating, but that's a lot more difficult, so I can see why school boards (because it's schools and school boards making these decisions, you know, Canadians) just decide to go generic.
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Originally Posted by fundmark19
So why now last 5-10 years are we changing Canada's culture that has been around for last 140 odd years.
Because it will change to reflect the current population. Change isn't always bad.
And a bit of a red herring, we're not changing Canada's culture, we're changing what happens in public schools during one holiday. Which may influence culture to some degree, but making tolerance and acceptance part of culture is a good thing.
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Originally Posted by fundmark19
Is it a coincidence that this seems to be the same time frame that people have started to push that they are atheists and trying to have atheist rights, instead of being impartial to holiday/religious celebrations as people were in the past?
It could be a coincidence, it might not be, you'll have to do more to support a connection than ask the question. Who knows, maybe atheists being more vocal have made other groups who have felt marginalized and intimidated by the majority (majorities can be very intimidating even if they don't intend).
Just because someone was silent in the past doesn't mean they were impartial.
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I could care less about Merry Christmas part I get it, has Christ in it. But why Santa! Why are we now getting rid of Santa, what did he ever do to piss off some adults enough to take him out of children's lives.
The culture I used to be involved with was very anti-Santa, they viewed it as a plot ultimately by Satan to change the emphasis of Christmas from Jesus to greed and commercialization.
They fought Santa in the schools constantly, holding kids out of Christmas concerts (and having alternative events at the church, like they do with Halloween), organized letter campaigns to school boards, prayer sessions, etc.
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Originally Posted by fundmark19
This is the list of Holidays in December
8-16 - Hanukkah* (Jewish)
12 - Virgin of Guadalupe (Mexico)
13 - Santa Lucia Day (Sweden)
16-25 - Las Posadas (Mexico)
25 - Christmas (Christian, Roman Catholic, International)
26 - Boxing Day (Canada, United Kingdom)
26 - Kwanzaa (African-American)
By saying Happy Holidays we are including 5 Different groups. People don't seem to complain that they get christmas and boxing day off regardless of their religion or beliefs. Should we re-name Christmas to universal generic holiday day?
Argument from stat-holiday? Surely you aren't being serious.
It's possible to recognize the history of a date without having to think keeping the name and date should be construed as 100% support for everything that date stood for in all its history.
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An atheist state isn't communist North Korea, the closest we have to one is Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, France, etc..
Hmm, no.
Finland has a state church, so in a way it's actually further from being an atheist state than the US. It's not even an atheist country.
To put it very shortly, this rather common confusion comes from the difference in Christianity. In here, religion is a very personal thing, private even. It's often considered impolite to inquire into other people's religious beliefs, and preaching your moralities upon others is in general frowned up, to the point that religious paraphernilia is considered a little odd, except maybe for a simple cross. To an outsider, this can easily look as if people are not religious at all.
This relates to Finnish culture in general. As another example, even though conservative values like the nuclear family are highly appreciated, a relatively sure way to lose an election is parading yourself and your family as a model family.
Basicly, "We don't like people who push their values on others" takes precedence over "we like people who share our values".
(Right now, this has taken a bit of a weird twist, as a part of the population feel that there is a leftist-green-feminist -movement pushing it's agenda down everyone's throats. They are in a way right, but their reactions, sheesh... Don't get me started.)
As to the whole Christmas thing and what to call it, I sometimes wonder why there doesn't seem to be a serious movement to get rid of the pagan weekday names (Sun's day, Moons day, Tiws day, Wodans day, Tors day, Friggs day, Saturns day).
Finland has a state church, so in a way it's actually further from being an atheist state than the US. It's not even an atheist country.
Sorry I didn't make my point clearly, what I was referring to is the percentage of people who are not religious, atheist and agnostic. These countries have the highest % of that, and thus identified as the most atheistic nations in the world.
Theres even a book which makes the case that a state church which is found in most EU/Nordic nations helped create this backlack of non belief. The book is Society without God, what the most irreligious nations can teach us.
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To put it very shortly, this rather common confusion comes from the difference in Christianity. In here, religion is a very personal thing, private even. It's often considered impolite to inquire into other people's religious beliefs, and preaching your moralities upon others is in general frowned up, to the point that religious paraphernilia is considered a little odd, except maybe for a simple cross. To an outsider, this can easily look as if people are not religious at all.
Yeah, religious is very private here too in Iceland. The thing is most people's religious views are very vague and too, say an American Christian would seem agnostic. People don't take the bible literally, don't believe in hell, have this vague religious belief that at its core is quite unreligious. The fact is nordic nations just don't really care much about religion, its very much in the background and I for one love that
Finlands humanist group has close ties with us (ismennt.is) in Iceland and we've been very fortunate for all their help and support.
Iceland is in the middle of writing a new constitution to remove the state church and create a true separation of church and state. Reykjavik city was the first to ban priests from coming into elementary schools and preaching to kids, handing out bibles, etc.. This has been a hot topic over the traditions but not really the God part, just the identity of the people; its an interesting twist to what I'm used to in America, people really could care less if people believe in God but they like the traditions.
So the schools can continue to have Christmas events, but people in the majority are against a state church and priests being allowed access to preach to young children in public schools.
Theres even a book which makes the case that a state church which is found in most EU/Nordic nations helped create this backlack of non belief.
It's actually my personal view too. There's nothing like mandatory religion classes in school to rub the charm off of religion. And knowing more about ones own religion tends to have an alienating effect on many.
It might be noteworthy that in Finland the teachers actually do most of the religious teaching, not priests.
Funnily enough, 78% of Finns are still a part of the state church, despite only about 40% of them actually believing that there's a god. That first number has been dropping by 1-2 points per year though, propably faster in Helsinki.
Even more interesting is when you ask the 40% details about their belief in God. If you were looking for the typical US Christian type in that 40%, the number would be in the 15% range if its anything like Iceland.
If asked specifics about their beliefs its just simple basic stuff, I believe in God, its good to follow the golden rule, no I don´t believe in hell or think the bible is true.
I've always thought people who have Coexist bumper stickers are the kind of people who buy organic and use gender-inclusive pronouns at every possibility.
Not to knock the basis, I still agree with it. It's just anyone I've ever seen with it is a hipster.
I've always thought people who have Coexist bumper stickers are the kind of people who buy organic and use gender-inclusive pronouns at every possibility.
Not to knock the basis, I still agree with it. It's just anyone I've ever seen with it is a hipster.
What's wrong with buying organic? Don't have to be a hipster to want to eat natural (and often better tasting) foods.
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If we want our schools to teach tolerance and acceptance of others why not then have little celebrations for everyone in a class during the year and teach what it is they are celebrating. It would take like 30 mins at most 20 times a year.
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If we want our schools to teach tolerance and acceptance of others why not then have little celebrations for everyone in a class during the year and teach what it is they are celebrating. It would take like 30 mins at most 20 times a year.
I think that is a great idea. Sadly the education system probably isn't imaginative to think of it.
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That thread with Mel typing in caps SCAM does little to convince any serious sceptic for or against organic food of anything. It's a bunch of people largely agreeing with one another. As some people are aware, the food industry is a haven of quackery and pseudoscience, both for and against organic food, and a multitude of other things. The thread in question has almost no actual scientific discussion besides one side claiming one thing and the other another. The little it does states there needs to be more research conducted. For instance, as the Scientific Creative Quarterly has said, preliminary studies have shown that organic farming is better at sustaining wildlife and saving energy, however, more and better research needs to be done. I think we can all agree on that.
Besides the health benefits, or lack thereof, of organic food, there are side benefits. The "buy local" attitude usually attached to it, the raising of societal awareness of where the food supply comes from and how it's made. A personal attachment to our food supply is something we've lost in the modern era.
There is a lot of junk spewed forth from the mouths of organic afficionados, and there is a lot spewed forth from the mouths of organic detractors, too. Across the board great over simplifications are made.
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"An adherent of homeopathy has no brain. They have skull water with the memory of a brain."
People who want to eat food grown without the use of chemicals and petrochemicals including pesticides, fungicides, herbicides as well as hydroponics, hormones, and synthetic fertilizers are a bunch of morons.
That thread with Mel typing in caps SCAM does little to convince any serious sceptic for or against organic food of anything. It's a bunch of people largely agreeing with one another. As some people are aware, the food industry is a haven of quackery and pseudoscience, both for and against organic food, and a multitude of other things. The thread in question has almost no actual scientific discussion besides one side claiming one thing and the other another. The little it does states there needs to be more research conducted. For instance, as the Scientific Creative Quarterly has said, preliminary studies have shown that organic farming is better at sustaining wildlife and saving energy, however, more and better research needs to be done. I think we can all agree on that.
Besides the health benefits, or lack thereof, of organic food, there are side benefits. The "buy local" attitude usually attached to it, the raising of societal awareness of where the food supply comes from and how it's made. A personal attachment to our food supply is something we've lost in the modern era.
There is a lot of junk spewed forth from the mouths of organic afficionados, and there is a lot spewed forth from the mouths of organic detractors, too. Across the board great over simplifications are made.
In my experience very little of that actually occurs. People aren't buying local, they're buying products shipped in the same manner with organic slapped on the outside. There's a lot of ignorance and assumptions with organics, people just place their own definition onto it.
Sorry for the continued derailing. There is a bit of a tie I guess though, seeing as science hasn't really demonstrated a benefit to organics but many people will swear that one exists. Sort of a belief in something that hasn't been proven, which I guess is a bit of a parallel to religion. The difference of course is that this is something that should be capable of being proven (or not) with further research.
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(Sun's day, Moons day, Tiws day, Wodans day, Tors day, Friggs day, Saturns day).
