Federal gun smuggling

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Why do so many people in the US think the founding fathers were 100% correct on all issues, and as such the constitution is gospel and should never be changed.

Because the founding fathers were truly educated, ...not under this liberal dog training that we have today.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

Good to hear smart people are working behind the scenes to enact gun control in America, just like I said a few months ago. Too bad it has resulted in some deaths, but if you're going to make an omelette, you've got to break a few eggs, eh?

Looking forward to the day when it's reasonably impossible for an American to buy a gun.

Man I can't wait to see Mikey's head explode.

Yeah since gang members are buying legal guns and getting permits. Banning guns sounds great but it won't work, the gang are committing crimes with guns illegally now so what is going to stop them when they ban them? Nothing that is if intend to punish those who do everything legally like myself. I have my ccw permit because those gang bangers in birminham don't care if their gun is legal or if you're part of whogivesaratsass gang and shoots you

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

The constitutional right to bear arms is out-dated and unneeded. I am all for it being undermined and removed by smart people.

Also Mikey, you live in Lethbridge, why do you care about American politics and guns so much? You're a rural Albertan who's only likely interface with America is crossing at Coutts to buy cheap smokes, booze and fill up you 1986 F-150. Why such an Ameri-boner?

If freedom and the bill of rights fall in America, what chance do other nations have? Also, it seems that whatever happens in America eventually happens in Canada because our leaders are weak.

The right to bear arms is not out-dated and un-needed. Americans may need the 2nd amendment in the coming years more than ever....especially if the military is used to suppress protest and unrest.

It's a baffling double standard that a government will willingly give guns to citizens to protect it's own interests in the case of war, but then take them away when a citizen wants to protect their own personal interests and safety.

When you criminalize guns, only criminals (and government) will have guns.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Love those "smart people" trying to undermine constitutional rights.....

You'll grow old, die and guns will still be here, thankfully.

Just for the record, constitutional rights are infringed here in Canada and in the United States all of the time, provided there is an adequate justification for it. For example, criminalization of uttering threats is clearly an infringement on your Charter-protected right to free speech. Is that undermining constitutional rights?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Because the founding fathers were truly educated, ...not under this liberal dog training that we have today.

Sure they were truely educated, but it was 250 years ago, do you honestly think that qualifies them to make decisions on the current state of the country?

These truely educated men still believed the following:
1) Slave owing = just super
2) Best way to get from A-B? Horses!
3) Flight? That's that thing birds do
4) England? Our greatest enemy, and they always will be!
5) There are 6 planets in the solar system
6) There are ~30 elements
7) Atoms? Are they related to the Maryland Adams?

These are the same educated men who had the forsight to say all men are created equal, and to add a bill of rights to the constitution (which includes the 2nd ammendment), but at the same time said "Yeah, those black fellas who run my farm? This doesn't really apply to them"

The whole reason there is a Supreme Court is so they can interperate the constitution because believe it or not, from time to time things change, or circumstances arise that the founding fathers may not have anticipated 250 years ago. We have just as many "Truely educated" people today as they did then, and with an additional 250 years of hindsight, I'd say they are in a much better position to make determinations on the state of the country than some guys who have been dead for 2 centuries.

[PIMking]

thats why they have amendments in the constitution to fix the problems that were in it.
Also as for Flying, I didn't know that the english were flying planes at that time, I mean those yanks that founded america must of been dumb since they didn't know how to fly back in the late 1700's

As for Britain, Yes they were our enemies, you know since they fought them for freedom and all. We just didn't wait a long time to sorta get our freedom from the English oppressing them. Now slavery, lets not act like it was just American's that did it, hell the main figures in the slave trade were the Dutch, and Portuguese. But as much as some people like to act racism is bad all over the globe. I and you may not be racist but we don't know about joe schmo walking down the street.

The right to bear arms will not be taken away from the citizens of the United States. If they try to do that you will see another succession from the union and another country started. (BTW NE tried to succeed from the union numerous times )

Look at the cities in the US like LA or Chicago and see the high crime rates with weapons. It's already illegal there what makes you think things will change if they outlaw guns? You're only stopping the law abiding citizen from protecting his life, and liberties. I said it before, I have my CCW permit and I carry sometimes, it just depends where I'm going. I have all my weapons locked up in a safe at my house when they aren't intended to be used. But I guess I'm just some crazy slave owning hick that is going to kill everything in sight. I just rather have the protection at my house if some wacko tries to break in at 3am, I know it's going to take the police 15 minuets to get there and most of the police are scared of the gangs anyways. They're only out for the badge and be the citizen bully and write tickets.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PIMking

thats why they have amendments in the constitution to fix the problems that were in it.
Also as for Flying, I didn't know that the english were flying planes at that time, I mean those yanks that founded america must of been dumb since they didn't know how to fly back in the late 1700's

As for Britain, Yes they were our enemies, you know since they fought them for freedom and all. We just didn't wait a long time to sorta get our freedom from the English oppressing them. Now slavery, lets not act like it was just American's that did it, hell the main figures in the slave trade were the Dutch, and Portuguese. But as much as some people like to act racism is bad all over the globe. I and you may not be racist but we don't know about joe schmo walking down the street.

The right to bear arms will not be taken away from the citizens of the United States. If they try to do that you will see another succession from the union and another country started. (BTW NE tried to succeed from the union numerous times )

Look at the cities in the US like LA or Chicago and see the high crime rates with weapons. It's already illegal there what makes you think things will change if they outlaw guns? You're only stopping the law abiding citizen from protecting his life, and liberties. I said it before, I have my CCW permit and I carry sometimes, it just depends where I'm going. I have all my weapons locked up in a safe at my house when they aren't intended to be used. But I guess I'm just some crazy slave owning hick that is going to kill everything in sight. I just rather have the protection at my house if some wacko tries to break in at 3am, I know it's going to take the police 15 minuets to get there and most of the police are scared of the gangs anyways. They're only out for the badge and be the citizen bully and write tickets.

This post pretty much sums up why I have no desire to go to places like Alabama

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

thats why they have amendments in the constitution to fix the problems that were in it.
Also as for Flying, I didn't know that the english were flying planes at that time, I mean those yanks that founded america must of been dumb since they didn't know how to fly back in the late 1700's

And you totally missed the point. I was trying to point out how much things have changed, and used a few scientific jabs to make my point.

As for Britain, Yes they were our enemies, you know since they fought them for freedom and all. We just didn't wait a long time to sorta get our freedom from the English oppressing them. Now slavery, lets not act like it was just American's that did it, hell the main figures in the slave trade were the Dutch, and Portuguese. But as much as some people like to act racism is bad all over the globe. I and you may not be racist but we don't know about joe schmo walking down the street.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. So you're saying that the founding fathers weren't wrong about slavery because a lot of other people were doing it? If they weren't wrong about it, they why was it abolished later on?
I'm certain that's not actually the point you're trying to make, so why don't you just concede that the whole slavery thing is a great example of how the founding fathers were in some ways completely ass backwards.

The right to bear arms will not be taken away from the citizens of the United States. If they try to do that you will see another succession from the union and another country started. (BTW NE tried to succeed from the union numerous times )

Look at the cities in the US like LA or Chicago and see the high crime rates with weapons. It's already illegal there what makes you think things will change if they outlaw guns? You're only stopping the law abiding citizen from protecting his life, and liberties. I said it before, I have my CCW permit and I carry sometimes, it just depends where I'm going. I have all my weapons locked up in a safe at my house when they aren't intended to be used. But I guess I'm just some crazy slave owning hick that is going to kill everything in sight. I just rather have the protection at my house if some wacko tries to break in at 3am, I know it's going to take the police 15 minuets to get there and most of the police are scared of the gangs anyways. They're only out for the badge and be the citizen bully and write tickets

First of all, I highly doubt you'd see any states leave the union becasue the 2nd ammendment was repealed.
Secondly, I've made my views pretty clear on this site before regarding gun ownership. I'd be willing to bet that I'm in the top 1% of gun ownership certainly on this site, and likely in canada (5 long guns, and 1 pistol), I'm certainly not against gun ownership.

What I am against is the attitude of gun ownership at any cost. People who think they should be able to own a fully automatic uzzi.
I'm also against carry permits for hand guns.
I've owned a pistol for several years now, and I can't think of a single time when I've thought, "geeze, I really wish I had my .45 on me right now, I sure would feel a lot safer".

I truely believe that guns for home protection, and properly/safely storing your guns are mutually exclusive concepts. Moreover, the concept of actually using a gun for home protection is protecting against such a minute risk that I believe owning a gun strictly for that purpose introduces a greater risk than the precieved one it is meant to deal with.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

And you totally missed the point. I was trying to point out how much things have changed

One thing that will never change is that absolute power corrupts.

We're seeing that in America right now.

Society needs a mechanism to protect itself against a government that becomes corrupt and tyrannous. What do you suggest?

Call the police?

BTW if it weren't for carry laws, Jared Loughner's body count would have been higher, but thanks to those good citizens a few lives were likely preserved.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

One thing that will never change is that absolute power corrupts.

We're seeing that in America right now.

Society needs a mechanism to protect itself against a government that becomes corrupt and tyrannous. What do you suggest?

Call the police?

BTW if it weren't for carry laws, Jared Loughner's body count would have been higher, but thanks to those good citizens a few lives were likely preserved.

Ah the standard Mikey response, where he ignores facts, and simply states the police are corrupt and shouldn't be trusted.

I shall counter with a study showing that the conception of More Guns = Less Crime (in fact it was written specifically to refute a book with a very similar name), is deeply flawed, that open and concealed carry laws do not reduce crime, and that states with those laws see an increase in violence.

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/A...ue_article.pdf

If you like, it's pretty easy to find about 10 more that have similar conclusions.

But yeah, you're pretty persuasive with you're "You think calling the police is a good idea?" argument.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Ah the standard Mikey response, where he ignores facts, and simply states the police are corrupt and shouldn't be trusted.

I shall counter with a study showing that the conception of More Guns = Less Crime (in fact it was written specifically to refute a book with a very similar name), is deeply flawed, that open and concealed carry laws do not reduce crime, and that states with those laws see an increase in violence.

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/A...ue_article.pdf

But yeah, you're pretty persuasive with you're "You think calling the police is a good idea?" argument.

I'm not ignoring any facts.

Hey, calling the police is a good idea, but will it help you when in a matter of seconds someone pulls a gun on you in the subway? The cops simply cannot be there on time. It's common sense to allow people to defend themselves.

Look up gun *defense* statistics. There are millions of gun defense actions in the U.S. every year....

I am okay with the fact that a few unnecessary deaths may occur as a result of citizens owning guns, just like I'm okay with the fact that traffic deaths occur as a result of people being able to travel freely in their own cars.

There's an inherent risk to living freely.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I'm not ignoring any facts.

Hey, calling the police is a good idea, but will it help you when in a matter of seconds someone pulls a gun on you in the subway? The cops simply cannot be there on time. It's common sense to allow people to defend themselves.

Look up gun *defense* statistics. There are millions of gun defense actions in the U.S. every year....

I am okay with the fact that a few unnecessary deaths may occur as a result of citizens owning guns, just like I'm okay with the fact that traffic deaths occur as a result of people being able to travel freely in their own cars.

There's an inherent risk to living freely.

Unfortunately that inherent risk is often born by other people around you and your "free living", meaning your neighbours are no longer free from being run over by your car or free from being hit by your bullet. That is why things like travelling in cars are heavily regulated by the government.

Also, right on schedule for this discussion, yet another school shooting in the United States today apparently: http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=112160

[valo403]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I'm not ignoring any facts.

Hey, calling the police is a good idea, but will it help you when in a matter of seconds someone pulls a gun on you in the subway? The cops simply cannot be there on time. It's common sense to allow people to defend themselves.

Look up gun *defense* statistics. There are millions of gun defense actions in the U.S. every year....

I am okay with the fact that a few unnecessary deaths may occur as a result of citizens owning guns, just like I'm okay with the fact that traffic deaths occur as a result of people being able to travel freely in their own cars.

There's an inherent risk to living freely.

Ah yes, yet another genius example from Mikey. So you'd be fine with heavy regulation and licensing requirements in order to legally own and operate a firearm then I take it? That's how people are allowed to 'travel freely' in vehicles.

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I'm not ignoring any facts.

Hey, calling the police is a good idea, but will it help you when in a matter of seconds someone pulls a gun on you in the subway? The cops simply cannot be there on time. It's common sense to allow people to defend themselves.

Look up gun *defense* statistics. There are millions of gun defense actions in the U.S. every year....

I am okay with the fact that a few unnecessary deaths may occur as a result of citizens owning guns, just like I'm okay with the fact that traffic deaths occur as a result of people being able to travel freely in their own cars.

There's an inherent risk to living freely.

Mikey, out of genuine interest, what's your educational experience? I get the feeling that perhaps the answer to that question will explain to us why you can't seem to see anyone else's viewpoint.

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ah yes, yet another genius example from Mikey. So you'd be fine with heavy regulation and licensing requirements in order to legally own and operate a firearm then I take it? That's how people are allowed to 'travel freely' in vehicles.

I am pretty sure using a very sound and logical retort against Mikey is going to get you as far as those Palestinian kids get throwing rocks at Israeli tanks...

This is why politicians need to make the occasional unpopular move, to protect people like Mikey from... themselves.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ah yes, yet another genius example from Mikey. So you'd be fine with heavy regulation and licensing requirements in order to legally own and operate a firearm then I take it? That's how people are allowed to 'travel freely' in vehicles.

Ummm, you do have to get a license to own a gun. You can't just stroll in there and come out with a military arsenal without a background check for example. That's not what we were talking about anyways. People like SCUD wish to abolish citizen gun ownership altogether.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

Mikey, out of genuine interest, what's your educational experience? I get the feeling that perhaps the answer to that question will explain to us why you can't seem to see anyone else's viewpoint.

Dropped out in grade 7.

[woob]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

Mikey, out of genuine interest, what's your educational experience? I get the feeling that perhaps the answer to that question will explain to us why you can't seem to see anyone else's viewpoint.

Pretty sure education has zero play in this. There are plenty of self professed well educated individuals on this board who routinely spout off with their own close minded views on subjects just like Mikey is doing on this subject. Try sticking to the topics on hand and grasping that no matter how right you think your opinion is, other people will always have a different opinion on the matter, educated or not. And I apologize if this came off as attacking you, your comment just struck a chord.

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by woob

Pretty sure education has zero play in this. There are plenty of self professed well educated individuals on this board who routinely spout off with their own close minded views on subjects just like Mikey is doing on this subject. Try sticking to the topics on hand and grasping that no matter how right you think your opinion is, other people will always have a different opinion on the matter, educated or not. And I apologize if this came off as attacking you, your comment just struck a chord.

Education is currency in debates like this. It shows how deep of intellectual pockets you have. Education has 99% play in this.

[Makarov]

^ I disagree (and strongly agree with woob.) Ideas, logic and reason are the currency in debates like this. Sometimes education fosters those things in a person, sometimes it does not. And many people are able to develop those things with very little education indeed.

Attack Mikey's arguments, not his education.