Frankly I'm more concerned that most of the people that have led governments that have persecuted religions had mustaches. Obviously if someone persecutes religion happens to have a mustache, then that mustache MUST have been the cause.
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Sorry, I don't see the problem. They built a house of worship and a housing development.
Did they contravene building or zoning codes? Presumably not.
This clearly has you worked up. Curious whether you'd have the same issue if it was a Catholic Church or a Baptist gated community?
Of course it has me worked up. I live in the Islamized Greater Toronto Area. There is nothing Canadian about this part of the country with the exception of it's geographic location.
I could care less if a Christian organization built it's own community. It would annoy me slightly, as I think such things are a step back in time, but Christianity is zero threat to Canadian culture. Unfortunately, that same culture is so accepting, that it is slowly handing over our beautiful country to a bunch of totalitarian, costumed pieces of stone age s***.
It may not seem that serious in Alberta (despite having a Muslim mayor in Calgary, though I know nothing about him and I assume he calls himself 'Muslim' just to make his parents happy), but Ontario is as ruined as Europe, which has an infestation problem.
Toronto has a school where they kick all non-Muslims out of the cafeteria during a portion of the lunch hour, they bring in some terrorist looking Imam, and they do their stone age s*** on the floor.
Of course no one does anything. There should be a riot over this. We're a bunch of pussies.
I have no problem with individual people, so you'll never hear me call out a person and accuse them of having an agenda, based on their religion.
Much like a benign tumor is generally harmless on it's own (like a Muslim) it's the onslaught of Cancer (Islam) that will spread and ruin what our grandfathers and great grandfathers fought for. This country.
I wasn't always like this, but buying groceries, surrounded by Osama lookalikes and half the women wearing niqabs and looking like they stepped out a 1000 B.C. time machine... it pisses me off.
Get the f*** with the times and integrate into the country you decided to move to.
Frankly I'm more concerned that most of the people that have led governments that have persecuted religions had mustaches. Obviously if someone persecutes religion happens to have a mustache, then that mustache MUST have been the cause.
Movember is a scary month for us all... god bless...
Fair enough on the history of Soviet and Chinese treatment towards religion. While I was brisk and inherently wrong with my statement, my point was more with the sentence that followed it. It doesn't matter who started it. Persecuting an entire group of people because they persecuted your ancestors is a terrible excuse to perpetuate violence and inhumane treatment. It's a school yard mentality.
I don't hold you responsible for any atrocities done in the name of your religion, nor would I treat you as such. I would treat you based on your current actions and who you are as a person; religious beliefs aside. That's how I operate. If you decide to physically attack me, I'll be pissed off at you and not Christianity.
I don't think anyone is attacking atheists. They were just responded to a survey. Christians weren't shaking a fist at atheists-they were just answering a question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasa
To clarify what you're saying; if you were attacked multiple times by a black person, you would begin to dislike all black people as you would associate it with a pattern of negative experiences? Crime, and general jack-assery is not a product of race. It's a product of culture and surroundings.
What I'm saying is if I lived in a community where a high percentage of say muggings were committed by black men I would worry about being found in a vulnerable position amonst black men. Sure those black men might mean me no harm but, based on experience I would distrust them. I can rationalize on one hand that even in this community most black males are law abiding but, that doesn't changes my feelings based on experiences. So what do I do? Probably avoid the group of black males. Most folks would do the same even though we know that there might not be any danger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasa
Atheists (just like everybody) come from all walks of life. If you've had multiple negative experiences with atheists acting like dicks, that's most likely because they were raised to be dicks. They could subscribe to any religion or non-religion and still have the same attitude.
I would bet that you have come across several atheists in your life that you wouldn't have ever known were atheists, but since they were kind and respectful, you never really thought anything of it.
Just the same, you comparing the actions of a handful (say 50-100?) atheists to the entire population is unjust. The WBC was just one example. Having lived in the Bible-Belt, I've experienced obnoxious actions and treatment from multiple people that claim to be Christian. I still don't judge the entire population. It's your individual actions that define how I treat you, not your belief in a diety.
I just don't think one should totally disregard experience. It is how we normally learn. If I run into some great atheists and my experiences are positive then I change my opinion. It's not like all those people who responded to the survey would never befriend an atheist or wish them harm. They at best would not go out of their way to seek friendship with an atheist. But, if offered they would probably give them the benefit of a doubt.
I had a friend who was/is agnostic. He worked the oil rigs in the southern states some years ago. He told me that almost everybody where he was was baptist and if you wanted to get a job or get ahead you better be baptist because they favioured their own. I didn't discount his experience. There is no doubt some truth to it. Is it always true? Of course not. Is it generally true? Well I would guess that depends on where you are and who you run into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasa
Ok. I brought up 9/11 in response to the idea that atheism is more dangerous than religious belief. Although, if a foreign power invaded your country and killed family or friends, I'm sure you would do what you could to have them leave. Not necessarily in the name of your religion. I'm not justifying their actions, but I digress.
Do you have any sort of stats to this, or is it just a wild guess you pulled out of the air? Do you treat all followers of Islam as terrorist enemies because of the recent actions?
No I don't have any data. It wasn't just pulled out of thin air either. I know these religious conflicts are wide spread because of the news reports I read and see. I also hear and recieve reports from missionaries from pretty remote areas of the world. It is suprising how many little countries have unsafe areas because of Muslim or communist rebels. You don't hear about it until it gets to be a big conflict where the Rebels are at risk of taking over but, they are out there. African and Asia have far more little wars going on then one would think. America has in the past put out a long list of countries with Al Qaeda links. I'm not sure of how well they are truly linked but, they probably do show at least what are religious hot spots.
The amount of supporters must represent millions based on the demonstrations we've seen in Muslim countries and statements by their religious leaders. I was going to post a link to a news report on a rall.y that took place in Cairo Egypt the other day. At it they called for the destruction of all Jews as is called for in the Koran. Having read parts of the Koran in an english translation and trying to take it in the context of the passages involved I don't doubt any fundamentalist Muslim would agree with the speaker at that rally. That is a huge problem because there will always be fundamentalist/literalists within their faith.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your experiences with atheists are negative because of lawsuits and intolerance of your beliefs. You judge an entire group of people negatively as a result. Non-violent actions, to that. Blanketing all atheists based off that is no different than atheists describing all Catholics or Christians as pedophiles as a result of the priest abuses. Do you know for a fact that everyone volunteering for soup kitchens, homeless shelters, Red Cross foreign aid, etc. or donating to charitable organizations are infact Christians? How do you know some are not atheists? Simply put, you don't. You assume, because you assume all atheists are selfish people. I apologize if I'm putting words into your mouth, but this is how you come across.
My experience being negative doesn't mean I or those who took the survey think there are no nice atheists. It justs means that if I meet one I'd probably would expect a negative experience while hopeing for a good one. Having a general opinion about the behaviour of a group of people doesn't mean you can't see them as individuals who should be judged on their own merits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasa
In the same breath, you speak about re-framing American history, an action that many Christians participate in as well. As far as I'm concerned, things such as "In God We Trust" on the money and "One Nation Under God" in the pledge of allegiance are products of the 50's that should be removed.
Fair enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasa
Ass holes always speak the loudest for any group. The WBC speaks loudly, despite being a substantially small population and yet people will base their opinions of you because of them. Islamic fundamentalists made the negative name for Muslims around the world. The police are put in a bad light when brutality makes the news. So on and so forth. The loudest and rudest person will uninentionally be the spokesperson for their subscriped opinion. I hate that it's like that, but that's just how it is. Not taking it upon yourself to break free from preconceived notions is on you, and by not doing so you're just fueling the fire for these people.
I know the worse in people are always the most seen. It is what our news agencies look for because it is apparently what we want to see. But, we are talking about a survey here. How can they answer without lumping the whole group together. In actual fact that is what the survey asks them to do. It doesn't mean that they don't give people a chance because they belong to a particular group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasa
It absolutely does mean they're equal in that sense. If 10 is a rapist, then an atheist (as horrible as we are) should be nowhere near 10. I am not physically or mentally harming anybody with my beliefs. I am not raping anybody! If an atheist ranks 10 on that scale, then a rapist should be a hell of a lot higher. That's a very ridiculous thing to say.
Again this is just a survey. Perhaps they were just a quarter of the way into the survey when they encountered "atheist" and responded with the highest negative rating because the only atheists they know have not been great people. Then later in the survey they were asked about "rapists" and responded with the worse possible rating. The survey asked for feelings of different groups of people and our feelings are almost totally based on experience. It doesn't mean Christians can't rationalize what they are feeling and see there could be a bigger picture.
Last edited by Calgaryborn; 12-02-2011 at 01:46 PM.
“If you believe your behaviour is being watched [by God] you are going to be on your best behaviour,” said Gervais. “But that wouldn’t apply for an atheist. That would allow people to use religious belief as a signal for how trustworthy a person is.”
I'd be curious to know from the Christians in the thread here (and I'm honestly not trying to bait anyone, I'd like a serious discussion of this point), if this is an accurate characterization of your opinion of atheists? Do you believe that their fear of being observed/judged is what makes religious people more trustworthy?
It is utterly incomprehensible if believers actually thought this way, but most often I find that those who consider the implication of this idea will then concede that of course just fear of God holding normal people back from committing horrible acts is itself a brutal concept not worthy of consideration.
I'd be curious to know from the Christians in the thread here (and I'm honestly not trying to bait anyone, I'd like a serious discussion of this point), if this is an accurate characterization of your opinion of atheists? Do you believe that their fear of being observed/judged is what makes religious people more trustworthy?
I think it is more like a relationship between a parent and a child. I love God and want him to be pleased with my conduct.
Christianity is a pretty big tent though so I'm not sure what motivates others. As a baptist(and this isn't true for all baptists but, probably most) I don't believe I can lose my salvation. It was given as a gift. Sin can ruins fellowship with God today and sin can also destroy my life just because of sins own consequences. But, I'm safe eternally.
Atheists don't have a guide book for right and wrong. That doesn't mean they will be immoral people. However, everyone including christians like to rationalize their failures or the wrongs they have done. It must be a heck of a lot easier to rationalize an excuse for yourself if you don't have that guide book staring you in the face telling you you've done wrong.
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Of course it has me worked up. I live in the Islamized Greater Toronto Area. There is nothing Canadian about this part of the country with the exception of it's geographic location.
I could care less if a Christian organization built it's own community. It would annoy me slightly, as I think such things are a step back in time, but Christianity is zero threat to Canadian culture. Unfortunately, that same culture is so accepting, that it is slowly handing over our beautiful country to a bunch of totalitarian, costumed pieces of stone age s***.
It may not seem that serious in Alberta (despite having a Muslim mayor in Calgary, though I know nothing about him and I assume he calls himself 'Muslim' just to make his parents happy), but Ontario is as ruined as Europe, which has an infestation problem.
Toronto has a school where they kick all non-Muslims out of the cafeteria during a portion of the lunch hour, they bring in some terrorist looking Imam, and they do their stone age s*** on the floor.
Of course no one does anything. There should be a riot over this. We're a bunch of pussies.
I have no problem with individual people, so you'll never hear me call out a person and accuse them of having an agenda, based on their religion.
Much like a benign tumor is generally harmless on it's own (like a Muslim) it's the onslaught of Cancer (Islam) that will spread and ruin what our grandfathers and great grandfathers fought for. This country.
I wasn't always like this, but buying groceries, surrounded by Osama lookalikes and half the women wearing niqabs and looking like they stepped out a 1000 B.C. time machine... it pisses me off.
Get the f*** with the times and integrate into the country you decided to move to.
Just clicked on the last page of this thread ready to pop open some popcorn after seeing Calgaryborn was involved and what do I get? A new and even more ignorant bag of hot air on the board? Say it isn't so! Looks like Christmas came early this year.
Its pretty pompus to say Christians have a great guidebook...this isn't about what the Bible says per se...just that it contradicts itself all over the place.
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Just clicked on the last page of this thread ready to pop open some popcorn after seeing Calgaryborn was involved and what do I get? A new and even more ignorant bag of hot air on the board? Say it isn't so! Looks like Christmas came early this year.
Meh... it's just one thing I take issue with. My life doesn't revolve around religious discussion. I just have a sore spot with one particular cult, that happens to have a billion members.
Like I said... I don't expect anyone who isn't entrenched in the same pocket of the GTA as me to have the ability to share my opinion. Out of sight, out of mind. What I have to look at every day is likely out of sight for you and most others here.
For more insight with where my mind is at, when discussing the subject of Islam, you can start here:
For religion in general, I subscribe to the school of Bill Maher and common sense.
Last edited by Scotian Lotion; 12-02-2011 at 02:28 PM.
Reason: f***ed up the Youtube tag
Just clicked on the last page of this thread ready to pop open some popcorn after seeing Calgaryborn was involved and what do I get? A new and even more ignorant bag of hot air on the board? Say it isn't so! Looks like Christmas came early this year.
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If I do get a warning for sharing my views, I would hope everyone involved in any type of religious discussion would get the same.
Most forums ban threads like this all together, because they never end on a positive note. I read the rules and saw no mention of anything relating to religion, so my guess is my account will be in good standing.
Are differing views allowed here? As far as I can tell, I am not asking anyone to subscribe to my agenda.
Another member asked me to clarify a previous statement I made, and that's what I did.
You're a lawyer. Correct me if I'm wrong.
with that said, I will bow out of this thread, since I just got here and I didn't join this forum to discuss religion or bring my Ontario issues with me. I joined this to forget about them.
Last edited by Scotian Lotion; 12-02-2011 at 02:36 PM.
Its pretty pompus to say Christians have a great guidebook...this isn't about what the Bible says per se...just that it contradicts itself all over the place.
Fozzie_DeBear there was a thread devoted to that little chart a while ago. The problem with it is the creator made no effort to answer the counterdictions posed in the chart. I went through a few of them and posted the answer for the first couple. Then I determined it was silly to do any more. A lot of the supposed counterdictions could be answered just by reading the whole chapter the scripture was found in. They weren't mysteries that have stumped scholars for centuries.
Anyone who truly were seeking answers could find them. But that wasn't the point of the chart. The chart was made to show questions with the hope that the viewers would conclude there is no answers and therefore the Bible is wrong. Obviously that is the conclusion you made without any attempt to answer those questions.
I made 2 conclusions regarding this chart: The author was being deliberately deceptive. He/she/they couldn't have missed some of the more obvious answers to the question. My second conclusion was those who pointed to this chart as some sort of proof were being willfully ignorant.
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If I do get a warning for sharing my views, I would hope everyone involved in any type of religious discussion would get the same.
Most forums ban threads like this all together, because they never end on a positive note. I read the rules and saw no mention of anything relating to religion, so my guess is my account will be in good standing.
Are differing views allowed here? As far as I can tell, I am not asking anyone to subscribe to my agenda.
Another member asked me to clarify a previous statement I made, and that's what I did.
You're a lawyer. Correct me if I'm wrong.
with that said, I will bow out of this thread, since I just got here and I didn't join this forum to discuss religion or bring my Ontario issues with me. I joined this to forget about them.
Troutman just likes to do drive-byes. If you cross a line you will get a fair warning from a Mod.
This thread is degenerating a little bit though. The topic is suppose to be about a survey of Christians and their low opinion of atheists. Your posting does expose a real time example of where experience is just as or more relevant then rationalization which is one of my points.
Meh... it's just one thing I take issue with. My life doesn't revolve around religious discussion. I just have a sore spot with one particular cult, that happens to have a billion members.
Like I said... I don't expect anyone who isn't entrenched in the same pocket of the GTA as me to have the ability to share my opinion. Out of sight, out of mind. What I have to look at every day is likely out of sight for you and most others here.
For more insight with where my mind is at, when discussing the subject of Islam, you can start here:
For religion in general, I subscribe to the school of Bill Maher and common sense.
Right, there's no Islamic presence in Calgary, or anywhere else for that matter. It's not like I live in a city where Islamic terrorists killed thousands or anything, I mean how could I possibly have any idea about the hell you go through.
Your views are those of a intolerant fool.
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You are slightly correct. I am intolerant to intolerance.
Religion, by it's fundamental nature, is intolerant. Islamic culture is especially intolerant of many things that people of western culture consider innocent. Like wearing clothing, for example.
So I guess I have something in common with it. Thanks for pointing that out.
You are slightly correct. I am intolerant to intolerance. Religion, by it's fundamental nature, is intolerant. Islamic culture is especially intolerant of many things that people of western culture consider innocent. Like wearing clothing, for example.
So I guess I have something in common with it. Thanks for pointing that out.
I wish more of my Christian brothers would learn that fundamental truth. One of the most offensive false doctrines to enter christiandum in the last half century is that tolerance is a Christian precept. Jesus was non-violent but, he was far from tolerant of sin/false religions.
I wish more of my Christian brothers would learn that fundamental truth. One of the most offensive false doctrines to enter christiandum in the last half century is that tolerance is a Christian precept. Jesus was non-violent but, he was far from tolerant of sin/false religions.
For more insight with where my mind is at, when discussing the subject of Islam, you can start here:
For religion in general, I subscribe to the school of Bill Maher and common sense.
lol IMO, that is the LAST guy you want to go to when wanting a sane and rational opinion on anything.
When "discussing the subject of Islam" you start at reading excellent books available in universities that look at religions the way they need to be looked at.
Last edited by Kipperriffic; 12-02-2011 at 03:48 PM.
