Heard a woman on 660News complain that her fellow protesters didn't protect her tent and belongings while she was at the hospital. Turns out she's 7 months pregnant and yet still feels that being down at Olympic Plaza is the right choice - even though she's already had to go to the hospital once because she got sick.
GIVE YOUR HEAD SHAKE. YOU'RE 7 MONTHS PREGNANT!
Social Services should be waiting when she delivers that kid.
Its clear that a woman who's camping out in freezing cold weather while 7 months pregnant is a complete and utter idiot.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
While the message has always been convoluted, I think it's fairly obvious they're talking about the whole banking/bonuses/tax structure/corporate and government back-scratching/broken regulatory system environment. "Greed-based economy" is just how a person chose to describe it.
But they're basing thier complaints on whats happening in the U.S. and other companies not here.
We have a strongly regulated banking system, and a pretty strong set of regulations that control corporations.
I don't know how the tax system is unfair when 1% of the population is paying over 25% of the taxes in this country, and if your making low income your tax exempt.
If your making less then 10,382 per year you're at 0
If you make between 10,382 and $41,000 you're at 15%
If you make over $128,000 its $29%
How is that somehow unfair, the 1% are essentially paying double the tax rate and for example if you make $30,000 per year your paying what about $4500.00, if your making the so called 1% at $170,000 your paying about $49,000.00
you could argue about tax loopholes and what not and I would agree with that, but these occupyer's don't want that, they want people who earn more then $170,000 to pay like 90% tax rate.
They bitch about government/corporate back scratching, but surprise that has to happen, if the government just focused on super taxing corporations like the NDP wanted we'd have these lavish social systems and no jobs. But we'd make one hell of a buggy whip.
Someone that argues about Canada having a greed based economy is stupid and has no understanding about how the system works, they've read some newspapers about things in the States, and they've said, gosh it must be just like that here, thats why the man is holding me down and enslaving me.
Then they turn around and want free college education, to be honest 2/3rds is being paid for by the government already.
We want higher minimum wage, thats great and all, but then you have to jack up the pricess of every consumer good out there, so you end up further behind anyways.
I heard one protestor bitching that its unfair that the bank is charging him 18% on his student loan and that was just wrong, so I wonder if he's actually read a loan document in his life.
Frankly I haven't seen a discussion from Occupy Calgary about any of what your talking about Ozzy. I've seen them talk about stuff that they've read in the newspaper ala Team America World Police and they've adopted that as their own with very little understanding.
I've heard Occupy Calgary talking about demanding free stuff.
I've heard nothing from them about regulations, or any of the other stuff that you've talked about with any kind of depth or understanding.
But I guess they're boned because without electricity they can't go to occupywiki and look up their next series of buzz words.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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Good, after seeing that ridiculous demands list yesterday, and the Occopy movement musing that they should light the Calgary offer on fire (One that I thought was ridiculous).
Give them nothing, and keep taking their stuff.
Keep writing fines, in fact ramp it up every night beyond the usual littering stuff, fine everyone who occupys the plaza after 9pm, and send in collection agents for those that miss court dates or don't pay their fines on time.
Send in the Humane Society to start seizing pets.
Send every ticket to welfare and UI to investigate.
Take away any portable heater they have on site for safety reasons.
If they start a fire put it out.
Make life completely uncomfortable and don't negotate with them period.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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that would then be corporate greed...and so far from how the economy is based, its assinine.
Part of the problem with this whole movement is the lack of any idea of what they are protesting for sure. This kind of statement just exemplifies that, and may be as big a part of why they have no support elsewhere.
Frankly I haven't seen a discussion from Occupy Calgary about any of what your talking about Ozzy. I've seen them talk about stuff that they've read in the newspaper ala Team America World Police and they've adopted that as their own with very little understanding.
This is the whole crux of the debate. I think they know what they're trying to argue, but they are having extreme difficulty articulating it or forming it into a coherent, effective message.
They may not have had a discussion because they don't know how to even begin with it. But I would say that for the most part, these people are arguing about economic difficulties and pointing fingers at those who own the wealth and make the corporate/political decisions. I think that much is pretty obvious if you look at what's being "protested" in New York, Calgary, wherever.
Cap, I can tell you're educated an passionate about the issue, and perhaps that's why you have a good grasp of the whole thing. Many people, protesters and non-protesters, don't have as good of an understanding, for whatever reason that might be.
This is the whole crux of the debate. I think they know what they're trying to argue, but they are having extreme difficulty articulating it or forming it into a coherent, effective message.
They may not have had a discussion because they don't know how to even begin with it. But I would say that for the most part, these people are arguing about economic difficulties and pointing fingers at those who own the wealth and make the corporate/political decisions. I think that much is pretty obvious if you look at what's being "protested" in New York, Calgary, wherever.
Cap, I can tell you're educated an passionate about the issue, and perhaps that's why you have a good grasp of the whole thing. Many people, protesters and non-protesters, don't have as good of an understanding, for whatever reason that might be.
See now that's something I can understand & accept. Back to the original "we're a symptom of the problem" argument the Occupy Calgary protesters were originally spouting. They may not be able to articulate & diagnose the problems, but they do have a right to be part of the discussion at some point.
The really sticky point for me is that those who are inarticulate & have a poor understanding of the problems should not be allowed to drive the conversation.
If my appendix is swollen and I go to the hospital it's acceptable for me to say "doc, I got pains in my abdomen", but that doesn't mean I get to order the xrays or insist on directing the surgery. Or worse yet insisting it's not my appendix as the doctor says, but I'm sure it's my heart, gonna need a robot heart for sure. Also I'm not leaving this ER until I get my robot heart!
Last edited by Regular_John; 11-22-2011 at 11:59 AM.
This is the whole crux of the debate. I think they know what they're trying to argue, but they are having extreme difficulty articulating it or forming it into a coherent, effective message.
They may not have had a discussion because they don't know how to even begin with it. But I would say that for the most part, these people are arguing about economic difficulties and pointing fingers at those who own the wealth and make the corporate/political decisions. I think that much is pretty obvious if you look at what's being "protested" in New York, Calgary, wherever.
Cap, I can tell you're educated an passionate about the issue, and perhaps that's why you have a good grasp of the whole thing. Many people, protesters and non-protesters, don't have as good of an understanding, for whatever reason that might be.
And I guess thats why drives me a little crazy. to me this protest is equivalent to the members of the Westboro Baptist church holding up signs that say "we're here, we're queer, deal with it"
To me the occupy movement in Calgary and in Canada has done a tremendous job of turning the majority of the 99% against them, a prime example would be the online poll where 99% wanted to deny them electricity.
Protests should inspire change and I'm going to get to that in a second. And to inspire change you have to have clear focus, be somewhat sympathetic and be able to discuss the problem and propose a solution.
while the Occupiers like to compare themselves to the Arab Spring, they're not relevant in that way. The Arab Spring protests arose from an entire community rising up against a brutal system of oppression and forcing change through clear focus and ideology, and they were willing to sacrifice tremendously.
The Peace Movement was successful because an entire generation rose up on a key issue, and they all had a consistant ability to discuss and push for change.
Look at the woman's protests for the vote and for sufferage.
Or the protests against child labor that pretty much kicked off the industrial revolution.
The occupy Canada movement is really protesting against what's happening in the United States, the situation in this country is different.
The Occupy Canada movement basically has torn their stances out of ridiculous big books of buzz words and because of that to me they sound like the celebrities in Team America World Police
Quote:
Tim Robbins: Let me explain to you how this works: you see, the corporations finance Team America, and then Team America goes out... and the corporations sit there in their... in their corporation buildings, and... and, and see, they're all corporation-y... and they make money.
They not only cannot articulate their stance, but they don't understand their stance so in effect it comes across as a combination of elitist youth activists who make outrageous demands without understanding the ramifications of demands on the people that they're suppossed to be arguing for, and another fringe group that decided to join in because it gave convienient execuses to their failures in life "I have a degree in advanced jazz contemporary dancing and nobody will pay me a $100,00 a year, I am the 99%.", or "I ran up my credit card bills to the point that I can't pay them back, and I'm paying huge interest rates, I am the 99%"
While they talk about being a leadership less group, thats a lame excuse, you need to have a concensus list of thoughtful demands, and you need focus to those demands. There's the old saying that "You can only change the world one step at a time"
They leave themselves vulnerable by allowing the crackpot element to not only hijack the movement, but become the face of the movement, and believe me, the occupy movement up here have driven off the original members that could have bought them that focus based ideaology.
They've become a un-sympathetic group, pretty un-heroic with their demands for free electricity, nearly submarining the homeless deal, and making the suggestion that it was ok to go raid homeless sheltersfor warm clothing. And they've lost touch with their core group or supporters inthe 99%. the dirty stinking hippies in the 60's and 70's never ever did that.
That is why Occupy Calgary/Canada is a damaging entity.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
This is the whole crux of the debate. I think they know what they're trying to argue, but they are having extreme difficulty articulating it or forming it into a coherent, effective message.
They may not have had a discussion because they don't know how to even begin with it. But I would say that for the most part, these people are arguing about economic difficulties and pointing fingers at those who own the wealth and make the corporate/political decisions. I think that much is pretty obvious if you look at what's being "protested" in New York, Calgary, wherever.
Cap, I can tell you're educated an passionate about the issue, and perhaps that's why you have a good grasp of the whole thing. Many people, protesters and non-protesters, don't have as good of an understanding, for whatever reason that might be.
Ozy, unless you have insight from the "inside," I think you're giving the remnants of the Occupy Calgary group way too much credit. They have no coherent message simply because they don't. Not because they can't articulate effectively or have a good grasp on terminology or are misguidedly echoing the OWS statements, etc. They have been reduced to ego-driven, self-centered grandstanding with nothing more than a pathetic effort at branding themselves as some sort of philosophical thinktank for a futuristic, fantastical society. Their irrelevance is staggering.
This is the whole crux of the debate. I think they know what they're trying to argue, but they are having extreme difficulty articulating it or forming it into a coherent, effective message.
Honestly, I think you are giving them far too much credit.
OWS is rooted in the problem of financial inequity, how the so-called 1% pays almost nothing into the system and that the rest of the country is thus on the hook to pay for it all.
Occupy Canada, and particularly Occupy Calgary, appears to have misconstrued that protest into "our lives aren't perfect and it's someone else's fault." This is where the sense of entitlement and "gimme gimme gimme" attitude is coming from. They struggle to articulate their stance because the basis for their protest is ridiculous. Canada is not the United States. Our rules are different, our regulations are different, our tax schemes are different, and our safety net is different.
OWS was a cause that got overrun by many fringe elements, each with separate platforms. OC was never anything more than that fringe. And they are so disconnected from reality that they have not only utterly failed to generate sympathy, they have actually turned the public at large against them.
I said it before, but you can't expect your fellow man to stand with you when you stand for nothing.
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Ozy, unless you have insight from the "inside," I think you're giving the remnants of the Occupy Calgary group way too much credit. They have no coherent message simply because they don't. Not because they can't articulate effectively or have a good grasp on terminology or are misguidedly echoing the OWS statements, etc. They have been reduced to ego-driven, self-centered grandstanding with nothing more than a pathetic effort at branding themselves as some sort of philosophical thinktank for a futuristic, fantastical society. Their irrelevance is staggering.
No, they have a reason for protesting (atleast initially). The message is just really poorly articulated, and they didn't do themselves any favours by not clariyfing it over the last month.
Whether you think they're 'ego-driven, self-centered [and] grandstanding' is pretty much irrelevant; they started protesting because of the movement inspired in New York, which was about income inequality and the gap that continues to widen (and other things like crony capitalism, excessive big government intervention, etc).
They don't have a clear message. They need one. However, I don't think it's smart to discredit them in the same way you think Ozy's over-crediting them (atleast initally why they started protesting, which might have seemed somewhat legitimate). But we can definitely all agree that now, they have no message, they are not willing to take that responsibility on, and their gig is up.
No, they have a reason for protesting (atleast initially). The message is just really poorly articulated, and they didn't do themselves any favours by not clariyfing it over the last month.
Whether you think they're 'ego-driven, self-centered [and] grandstanding' is pretty much irrelevant; they started protesting because of the movement inspired in New York, which was about income inequality and the gap that continues to widen (and other things like crony capitalism, excessive big government intervention, etc).
They don't have a clear message. They need one. However, I don't think it's smart to discredit them in the same way you think Ozy's over-crediting them (atleast initally why they started protesting, which might have seemed somewhat legitimate). But we can definitely all agree that now, they have no message, they are not willing to take that responsibility on, and their gig is up.
But you understand that the demands that were published by occupy Vancouver and all of the jingoism that Occupy Calgary and to an extent Canada is spouting out is really related to the American problems and not the Canadian problems.
You can't protest the lack of banking regulations in a country that had banking regulations that saved this country from a lot of the problems that the States had. For example.
If they would have said, we're protesting for OWS, then that would make sense, but that didn't even get articulated.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I think that removal of empty tents was executed perfectly for the city's/CPS' perspective. Low key, no media scrum, and obviously knowing there would be even fewer protestors than usual. Nicely done.
